.........
The
proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken
in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous
interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied
corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the
transcript.
Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:03.
The meeting began at 09:03.
|
Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan
Buddiannau
Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of
Interest
|
[1]
Bethan Jenkins:
Awn i ymlaen i’r cyfarfod
ffurfiol nawr ac eitem 1: cyflwyniad, ymddiheuriadau, dirprwyon. Os
bydd larwm tân, dylai pawb adael yr ystafell drwy’r
allanfeydd tân penodol a dilyn cyfarwyddiadau’r
tywyswyr a’r staff. Ni ddisgwylir prawf heddiw. Dylai pawb
droi eu ffonau symudol i fod yn dawel. Mae’r Cynulliad
Cenedlaethol yn gweithredu’n ddwyieithog, ac mae clustffonau
ar gael i glywed y cyfieithiad ar y pryd ac i addasu’r sain
ar gyfer pobl sy’n drwm eu clyw. Mae’r cyfieithu ar y
pryd ar gael ar sianel 1, a chwyddo’r sain ar sianel 0.
Peidiwch â chyffwrdd y botymau ar y meicroffonau gan y gall
hyn amharu ar y system, a gofalwch bod y golau coch ymlaen cyn
dechrau siarad. Oes unrhyw fuddiannau i’w datgan gan unrhyw
un? Na. Ymddiheuriadau a dirprwyon: mae Dawn Bowden a Jeremy Miles
wedi dweud eu bod nhw’n mynd i fod yn hwyr yma
heddiw.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: We’ll go into formal meeting and item 1:
Introductions, apologies and substitutions. If there is a fire
alarm, you should leave via relevant exits and follow the
instructions of the ushers and staff. We’re not expecting a
fire alarm today. Please put your mobile phones on silent. The
Welsh Assembly operates bilingually, and there are headphones
available to hear the simultaneous translation and for
amplification. The interpretation is on channel 1, and
amplification is on channel 0. Please do not touch the buttons on
the microphones as this can interfere with the broadcasting system,
and please make sure the red light is on before you begin to speak.
Any declarations of interest from Members? No. Apologies and
substitutions: Dawn Bowden and Jeremy Miles have said that they are
going to be late today.
|
09:04
|
|
Cyllid ar gyfer Addysg Cerddoriaeth a
Mynediad at yr Addysg Honno: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 7
Funding for and Access to Music Education: Evidence Session 7
|
[2]
Bethan Jenkins:
Eitem 2: ariannu addysg cerddoriaeth
a mynediad ati. Diolch heddiw i Emma Archer, sef cadeirydd
Cymdeithas Addysg Gerdd Awdurdodau Cymru; Chris Llewelyn,
cyfarwyddwr dysgu gydol oes, hamdden a gwybodaeth, Cymdeithas
Llywodraeth Leol Cymru; ac Aled Evans, cyfarwyddwr addysg, Cyngor
Bwrdeistref Sirol Castell-nedd Port Talbot. Diolch ichi am ddod yma
heddiw.
|
Bethan Jenkins:
Item 2:
funding for and access to music education. Thank you today to Emma
Archer, chair of the Welsh Authorities Music Education Association;
Chris Llewelyn, director of lifelong learning, leisure and
information, Welsh Local Government Association; and Aled Evans,
director of education, Neath Port Talbot County Borough Council.
Thank you all for coming here today.
|
[3]
Mae’n siŵr eich bod chi
wedi darllen neu weld rhai o’r trafodaethau gan y pwyllgor ar
y mater yma. Yn wir, roedd Karl Napieralla yma rai
wythnosau’n ôl yn siarad am ei rôl ar y grŵp
gorchwyl am y pwnc yma. Efallai y gwnaethoch chi weld bod Owain
Arwel Hughes wedi dod i mewn a dweud bod y sefyllfa
gyda cherddoriaeth mewn addysg yn
argyfyngus ar hyd Cymru. Hoffwn i wybod a ydych chi’n cytuno
gyda hynny, ac a fedrwch roi rhyw fath o gyd-destun o’r hyn
sydd yn digwydd ar lawr gwlad yma yng Nghymru? Rydym ni wedi cael
dogfennau ychwanegol neithiwr. Nid ydw i’n siŵr a yw
pawb wedi cael amser i ddarllen y dogfennau hynny, ond rydw
i’n siŵr y byddwn ni’n darllen y dogfennau hynny
cyn i ni ddod i unrhyw fath o gasgliad lawr y lein. Felly, croeso i
chi, ac os oes unrhyw atebion i hynny, byddai hynny’n
grêt. Diolch.
|
I’m sure
you’ll have read or maybe seen some of the discussions that
the committee have already held on this issue. Indeed, Karl
Napieralla was here a couple of weeks ago talking about his role on
the task group on this particular topic. Maybe you saw that Owain
Arwel Hughes had also been in and said that the situation in
relation to music in education is in crisis in Wales at the moment.
I’d like to know whether you agree with that, or whether you
can give us some sort of context of what is happening at
grass-roots level in Wales. We have had some additional documents
last night. I’m not sure if everyone’s had time to read
those, but we will certainly look at those before we come to any
sort of conclusion on this matter. So, welcome to you, and if you
have any initial remarks to that, that would be great. Thank
you.
|
[4]
Dr Llewelyn: Okay, I think the position of music services
remains a vulnerable one. I think, since you mentioned the Karl
Napieralla’s review—we worked closely with Karl in
conducting the review—I think it’s fair to say that
since then the position has deteriorated in that there have been
further funding cuts, and music services are vulnerable to cuts in
funding for a variety of reasons. That said, there have been
positive developments as well. I think that there has been
significant progress in terms of the National Youth Arts Wales
ensembles—the national groups. With the creation of National
Youth Arts Wales, we have a transitional arrangement in place for
the coming year, but I think that the arrangement that has been set
up, the company that’s been formed, is an exciting
development. It looks fit for purpose from our perspective and I
think it makes sense to have one national body, which is at
arm’s length from Government, which deals with the all the
national groups and the arts ensemble.
|
[5]
The previous arrangement was a historical accident, if you like,
and I think the idea of local government funding some national
youth arts groups through an exams body was anachronistic, and I
think it needed changing. So, I’m optimistic about the new
arrangement. And then in other aspects as well, I think the
development of the new curriculum, the implementation of
Donaldson’s recommendations, the idea of creative learners,
of going out to schools and asking them to develop the new
curriculum, and maybe giving music a distinct and clear status as
an academic discipline within the curriculum I think is very
positive. And then the work that’s gone on in terms of the
developments around the Dai Smith review, and the schools that have
been involved in that in the creative learning through the arts
work—I think that those developments are very positive and
exciting as well. But, as I say, it’s within a context of
significant further cuts in funding.
|
[6]
Bethan Jenkins: Emma or Aled?
|
[7]
Mr Evans: Os caf i ategu
efallai yr hyn mae Chris wedi’i ddweud, mae yna heriau yn ein
hwynebu ni, nid oes amheuaeth am hynny o gwbl, ac mae’r
heriau hynny’n rhai sy’n ymwneud yn bennaf â
chyllid a sut rŷm ni’n sicrhau bod y gwasanaethau wedi
cael eu cyllido yn ddigonol ac yn addas. I ryw raddau hefyd,
mae’n rhaid i ni edrych ar yr ystod o ddarpariaeth sydd yn
digwydd. Mae yna wersi cerddoriaeth yn digwydd mewn ysgolion ac mae
hynny’n rhan o’r cwricwlwm cenedlaethol. Ac, fel mae
Chris wedi dweud, fe fydd e’n rhan o’r cwricwlwm newydd
pan fydd Dyfodol Llwyddiannus yn cael ei weithredu ar draws ein
hysgolion. Felly, mae yna addysg, mae yna ddysgu cerddoriaeth yn
digwydd. Wrth gwrs, mae yna hefyd, fel rŷm ni’n gwybod,
angen i ni ddatblygu offerynwyr a’r rheini sydd yn
defnyddio’u llais efallai y tu hwnt i’r gwersi hynny.
Ac yn yr agwedd honno rŷm ni’n credu ein bod ni’n
gweld rhywfaint o argyfwng neu her benodol ynglŷn â sut
rŷm ni’n cynnal y gwasanaethau hynny. Rŷm
ni’n ymwybodol bod rhai awdurdodau yn edrych ar ffyrdd
blaengar o wneud hynny drwy
edrych ar ddatblygu gwasanaethau mwy hybrid nag sydd yno ar hyn o
bryd, drwy sicrhau eu bod nhw’n cael nawdd o weithio gydag
oedolion drwy therapi cerdd, er enghraifft. Mae hynny’n dod
â chyllid i mewn i’r gwasanaeth sydd yn gallu, wedyn,
sicrhau bod y gwasanaeth yn fwy cadarn o ran ei gyllid. Felly, mae
yna wasanaethau yn edrych ar hynny. Rŷm ni’n gwybod
hefyd fod rhai ysgolion yn edrych ar sut gallant gefnogi plant sydd
o gefndiroedd mwy difreintiedig, a sut mae amddifadedd yn effeithio
ar hynny, ac efallai’r defnydd o’r grant amddifadedd yn
cael ei ddefnyddio, i ryw raddau beth bynnag, i gynnal y math o
addysg, neu’r math o wersi sydd eu hangen ar
blant.
|
Mr
Evans: If I could endorse what Chris has said, there are
challenges facing us, there’s no doubt about that at all, and
those challenges are ones relating mainly to funding and how we
ensure that the services are funded appropriately, and
sufficiently. To a certain extent as well, we have to look at the
range of provision that is offered. There are music lessons
happening in schools and that is part of the national curriculum.
And, as Chris said, it will be part of the new curriculum when
Successful Futures is implemented across our schools. So, there is
music education happening, but, of course, also, as we know, there
is a need for us to develop instrumentalists and those who use
their voices maybe beyond those lessons. And in that respect, I
think that we do see possibly a crisis, or a specific challenge
about how we maintain or sustain those services. We are aware that
some authorities are looking at very progressive ways of doing that
by looking at developing hybrid services—more hybrid than the
ones that exist presently—by ensuring that they receive
sponsorship in terms of working with adults through music therapy
and so forth. That bring funding in to the service, which then can
be used to ensure that that service is more robust in terms of
funding. So, there are services looking at that. We also know that
some schools are looking at how they can support children from
disadvantaged backgrounds, and how deprivation affects that, and
perhaps use of the deprivation grant being used to a certain extent
to sustain or provide the kind of education and tuition that
children need.
|
[8]
A ydy e’n argyfyngus? Nid wyf
yn hollol siŵr, ond mae eisiau i ni fod yn wyliadwrus, ac mae
eisiau i ni ddeall beth yw’r pinch points, beth
yw’r union faterion rŷm ni’n eu hwynebu, ac yna
rwy’n credu bod rhaid i ni edrych ar sut gallwn ni ddatrys y
materion hynny mewn modd blaengar, gan fod yn ymwybodol bod cyllid
yn yrrwr go sylweddol o ran yr hyn rŷm ni’n ceisio ei
gyflawni.
|
Is it a crisis?
Well, I’m not sure, but we need to be careful, and we need to
understand what the pinch points are and the exact problems that we
do face, and then I think we need to look at how we can resolve
those issues in a progressive way, being aware that funding is a
significant driver in terms of what we’re trying to
achieve.
|
[9]
Ms Archer: Yes, I think that the main thing is that there is
a huge variety—I know you’ve heard from colleagues
already from other music services across Wales as part of the
inquiry—in the funding that’s been left in place and
the models of delivery that, as a result, have been developed. I
don’t think that over the last 20 years there has been any
strategy to arrive at the point that we are now at, so as a result
of that, I think each local authority, or each music service, has
responded individually in different ways to the challenges of
funding cuts. I think, as a result of that, there are now huge
differences in how fit for purpose people are to move forward.
|
[10]
So, broad examples of that are where we’ve got small
authorities that have had funding cuts and have responded by
salami-slicing, if you like, the structure of staffing that they
had in place, they are now at a point where they’re
responding as best they can to the demand in their area, but
they’ve perhaps got one music service manager carrying out
all the roles of an SRT team, so dealing with the HR, the
safeguarding, the website and everything. You’ve got other
services, like ourselves in Gwent, that have stayed as a
collaborative cross-authority model and, happily for us, because
ever since 1996 we’ve stayed more or less as the footprint of
Gwent, we’ve been able to sustain some of the structure in
terms of a business team that we had. It’s made it an awful
lot easier for us to make sure that we’re futureproofing at
each stage, and being ready for the next step of challenge.
|
[11]
The worry and the crisis, as it has been called, for us now is, I
think, whereas the funding challenges to date have perhaps been
dealt with by efficiencies in staffing, or efficiencies in stock,
or efficiencies in the way that we deliver, the majority of people
are now at the stage where the way that we would take forward any
further cuts would be to pass them further on to the
children—therefore, increase the hourly rate to schools,
increase charges for local groups, start charging for instrument
loans, some of which some of us are doing already. So, in those
cases, it’s a case of increasing those charges rather than
starting to charge.
|
[12]
So, I think that the point that we’ve reached now is that we
either need to look at an entirely new way of working, which
delivers up fairly huge efficiencies, and possibly doesn’t
deliver in the same way as we do at the moment, or there does need
to be additional funding that comes in line and comes some way to
putting us on an even keel with Scotland or with England.
You’ve heard evidence from Richard Hallam that the pupil
offer in Wales is considerably lower per head than it is in the
other nations. And so, although you’ve got a really willing
and creative team of music educators that are doing their best to
carry on delivering, I do feel we’re approaching the point
now where it will be difficult not to have that impact felt
directly by pupils in the future.
|
09:15
|
[13]
Bethan Jenkins: Thanks. I just wondered if I could ask you
specifically, Emma, if you have—apologies if you’ve
given it in the document—a list of all of the music tutors,
through the music service, who provide tutoring across Wales
because what we struggle with is getting a clear picture, as
I’m sure potentially you do, as to who actually goes into
schools, and who is doing what, where. Does that information exist
with you?
|
[14]
Ms Archer: We don’t have as detailed a
document—. The reason for spending on the Scottish report is,
I think, that’s a really good piece of work that has been
done. And I know that, in England, they do a similar report because
of having to justify the £75 million. The picture that
I’ve got is just one that I’ve managed to compile in
the 18 months in my role as chair of CAGAC. I’ve got the full
figures that we’ve got: I’ve got the qualified versus
unqualified teacher status, and an idea of how the tutors are
delivering—some of the detail of which is in the task and
finish response from CAGAC. But, beyond that, there’s not the
level of detail, I’m afraid, that there is in the Scottish
report because we simply haven’t got the resources to do
that, and that would be something that would be really welcome, I
think—to have a more detailed picture.
|
[15]
Dr Llewelyn: Can I come in, Chair? We will be, jointly
between ADEW and CAGAC, and in partnership with the Welsh
Government, providing a report to the Cabinet Secretary as a
follow-up to some of the Karl Napieralla review, and it will be
based on some of the information collected though CAGAC. We’d
be happy to share that with the committee when it goes to the
Cabinet Secretary perhaps.
|
[16]
Bethan Jenkins:
Y cwestiwn olaf sydd gennyf ar
hyn o bryd yw: jest o glywed beth rydych chi’n ei ddweud,
Chris Llewelyn ac Aled Evans, o ran rôl llywodraeth leol, a
gaf i jest gadarnhau really, ar ein cyfer ni, i wybod pan
fyddwn ni’n edrych ar sut i ariannu hyn wrth symud ymlaen,
nad ydych chi’n credu mai rôl awdurdodau lleol yw
rhoi’r arian yma gerbron? Hynny yw, rydych chi’n dweud
ei bod hi jest wedi fod yn rhyw fath o ffliwc eich bod chi wedi bod
yn y sefyllfa yma. Os mai nid chi sydd yn ariannu, a ydych
chi’n credu mai corff newydd felly, National Youth
Arts Wales Ltd, a ddylai fod wedyn yn
ariannu’r gweithredoedd lleol?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: The final question I have at the moment is: just
listening to what you were saying, Chris Llewelyn and Aled Evans,
about the role of local government, could I just confirm then, just
for us to know when we look at how to fund this in moving forward,
that you don’t think that it’s the role of local
authorities to give that funding? What you’re saying is that
it’s just been a sort of fluke almost that you’ve been
in that situation. If you are not providing the funding, do you
think that a new body, National Youth Arts Wales Ltd, should be
doing so, and funding the local operations?
|
[17]
Dr Llewelyn:
Na. Beth roeddwn i’n ei awgrymu
oedd, o ran y grwpiau cenedlaethol, ei bod yn addas i gael corff
penodol i drefnu’r holl weithgaredd ar gyfer y grwpiau hynny.
Ond o ran y gwersi a hyfforddiant lleol, fe fyddwn i’n
cytuno. Rwy’n credu bod adroddiad Karl Napieralla yn crybwyll
ei bod yn bwysig fod y gweithgaredd a’r ddarpariaeth honno yn
dal i fod yn lleol, wedi’u lleoli o amgylch ysgolion ac yn
cael eu hariannu drwy awdurdodau lleol. Yr egwyddor yw, yn
llythrennol mewn ffordd, y pwysigrwydd o ran cerdd o gael llais
lleol fel petai, ac ymateb yn lleol i amgylchiadau lleol. Felly fe
fyddwn i’n crybwyll bod yna ddwy haen: o ran y gweithgaredd
cenedlaethol, bod y gweithgaredd hwnnw yn cael ei ariannu’n
genedlaethol drwy’r corff hyd braich annibynnol, ond ein
bod ni’n parhau â’r drefn bresennol o
ddarparu gwasanaeth sy’n agored i bawb drwy ysgolion ac
awdurdodau lleol. Ac yn y cyswllt hwnnw, fe fyddwn i’n
awgrymu taw’r broblem yw’r cyllido yn hytrach na
strwythur y gwasanaeth.
|
Dr
Llewelyn: No. What I was suggesting was, in terms of the
national groups, that it is appropriate that you have a specific
body to arrange all the activity for those groups. But in terms of
lessons and local tuition, I would agree. I think that the report
by Karl Napieralla does mention the fact that it’s important
that the activity and that provision are still local, and located
around the schools and funded through local authorities. The
principle is, literally in a way, the importance in terms of music
of having a local voice as it were, and responding locally to local
conditions. So, I would say that there are two tiers: in terms of
the national activity, that activity is funded nationally through
the arm’s length body, which is independent, but then we
continue with the current system of providing services that are
open to all through schools and local authorities. And in that
context I would suggest that the problem is funding rather than the
structure of the service.
|
[18]
Bethan Jenkins:
Oherwydd bod rhai ysgolion neu rai
awdurdodau lleol yn dewis rhoi’r arian mewn llefydd eraill,
er enghraifft, ac wedyn nid yw’r arian yn mynd at
gerddoriaeth. A oes yna rywbeth rydych chi’n gallu ei roi fel
rhyw fath o arweinyddiaeth i sicrhau bod yr ysgolion yn
gwario’r arian ar gerddoriaeth?
|
Bethan Jenkins: Because some schools or some local
authorities chose to put that money in other places, for example,
and then that money does not go towards music. Is there something
that you can give in terms of leadership to make sure that schools
do spend that money on music?
|
[19]
Dr Llewelyn:
Y drafferth yw pan fydd yna doriadau,
yn anochel mae baich neu bwysau’r toriadau yn syrthio yn
rhywle. Beth mae’r awdurdodau yn draddodiadol yn ei wneud yw,
ar draws pob gwasanaeth, maen nhw’n blaenoriaethu’r
gwasanaethu statudol a’r gwasanaethau sy’n cael eu
harolygu yn allanol, ac yn y blaen. So, mae’n anochel. I chi
fel pwyllgor, rŷm ni yn gyfarwydd iawn â thrafod
toriadau sy’n digwydd mewn meysydd eraill o wasanaethau
gwirfoddol—llyfrgelloedd, gwasanaethau hamdden, pyllau nofio,
diwylliant, ac yn y blaen—a dyna beth sy’n digwydd yn y
cyswllt yma.
|
Dr
Llewelyn: The problem is that when there are cuts, inevitably
the burden or the pressure of cuts does have to fall somewhere. And
local authorities traditionally, across every service, have
prioritised the statutory services and those that are inspected
externally, and so forth. So, it’s inevitable. For you as a
committee, we are very familiar with discussing cuts happening in
other areas of voluntary services—libraries, leisure
services, swimming pools and culture and so forth—and
that’s what’s happening in this context.
|
[20]
Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Suzy Davies.
|
[21]
Suzy Davies: Thank you for your answers to date, and I’m
mindful of what you’ve already told us before I ask this
question, but I want to go back to the task and finish group. I was
alarmed to hear you say, Chris, that things have actually
deteriorated since the publication of that report, and you cited
funding as the reason for that. But the report itself for the task
and finish group did set out a series of recommendations—15
of them—the majority of which have made suggestions about
what local authorities and the WLGA could and should do within a
certain time frame. I hear what you say about money, but there were
other things that you were being asked to do in that report, and
there’s a range of them here. Can you tell me something about
progress against those, whether funding has been a fundamental
problem in progressing, or whether there are things you could have
done but haven’t done that aren’t money
related?
|
[22]
Dr Llewelyn: I think the timescale set out in the report, many of
them slipped because of the date of the publication. One of the
other things that’s happened is—as often
happens—when there is an Assembly election and a change of
Government and a change of Ministers and so on, priorities change
and that causes something of a delay, as well. We’re working
with the Welsh—
|
[23]
Suzy Davies: Sorry, can I just interrupt there? I don’t mean
to interrupt the flow, particularly, but I don’t genuinely
see how a Government election interrupts something the WLGA has
been asked to do itself not involving Government.
|
[24]
Dr Llewelyn: Well, no, what I’d say to you is the status of
the report has no bearing on the WLGA as such. We worked with Karl
Napieralla, the authors of the report and the Welsh Government,
both in advance of the publication of the report and then in terms
of implementing the recommendations. But, you know, many of the
recommendations—almost all of the recommendations—in
the report have some kind of resource implication. If you look at
the early ones in terms of collecting information, setting up
databases—. One of the recommendations, for example, is: I
think it says that the WLGA should set up a database of
instruments. Well, again, that is quite a task. Creating a database
of that kind and maintaining it is quite resource intensive, would
require significant capacity—
|
[25]
Suzy Davies: Significant?
|
[26]
Dr Llewelyn: —and we wouldn’t have the capacity to do
that. In discussion with authorities and with colleagues,
it’s not absolutely clear the value—the cost-benefit if
you like. The resource implications involved in setting that up
would outweigh any of the benefits.
|
[27]
Suzy Davies: Is it easier to tell me which recommendations you and
colleagues have managed to implement?
|
[28]
Dr Llewelyn: Well, I don’t actually have them in front of
me—
|
[29]
Suzy Davies: We can help you with that.
|
[30]
Dr Llewelyn: —but in terms of assessing the current
provision and the models used across authorities, we’ve got
that information. I think the second recommendation, as well, we
have information on that. One of the difficulties—
|
[31]
Mr Evans: Sorry, can I add to that? I think
the—
|
[32]
Suzy Davies: Yes. I’m looking for good news.
|
[33]
Mr Evans: Well, I think it was useful in the sense that it gave
us an opportunity to compare and contrast approaches across Wales.
As I mentioned earlier, there was an opportunity to understand how
some local authorities were looking at trying to attract additional
funding by enhancing or extending the scope of the music service
through music therapy, through post-16 education and a range of
other activities that would then seek to underpin the service. I
don’t think we can, and I’m not suggesting that we are
in any way, underestimating the impact of budget cuts and financial
pressures. As Chris quite rightly said, when we are facing these
pressures, we will always look at trying to prioritise. We will
prioritise, for instance, the statutory services, because that was
what we expected to do, and those services that are subject to
external inspection or regulatory inspection. Currently, music
services are not and that may be something that we need to look
at.
|
[34]
Although Estyn did do a piece of work, I
think, six years ago, on music services in Wales, and surprise,
surprise, they said that funding was one of the key issues as far
as that was concerned. So, I don’t think we can underestimate
the impact of funding on the whole model. So, in the sense that it
brought a picture across Wales that was useful, I would agree with
Chris in terms of the database of instruments and the repair and
maintenance service, I think there’s some more work to be
done as far as looking at the cost-benefits of such a model, at a
time when we are just trying to maintain the current service in
schools, as Emma has indicated.
|
[35]
Suzy Davies: Yes, as I say, I was mindful of the answers you gave
before I asked my question. Can I ask you a simple one then, that
doesn’t cost anything? The terms of reference, have they been
adopted by all local authorities?
|
[36]
Mr Evans: I don’t believe that they’ve been—.
I can’t answer that specifically.
|
[37]
Ms Archer: I think, in the response that we’ve given, one
of the appendices is that we asked music services to what extent
they had been able to implement the terms of reference. Clearly,
some of the difficulties are to do with funding, because it is
linked directly to our ability to be able to offer a clear offer to
every pupil, and in terms of parity of charging structures and that
kind of thing, then there are direct links with funding. What you
find, looking at it, is that, obviously, in the services that are
not at zero funding at the moment, to a large degree they are
delivering. The terms of reference were great, and they are a good
starting point for us all to have some kind of plan to work
towards. But, clearly, it’s not possible to expect every
music service to deliver all of these terms of reference if
there’s a complete inequality of funding in the first
place.
|
[38]
Just going back to the database, we did
speak about this earlier this week. In Gwent, we use a software
package that administers all of our instrument loans, all of our
payroll, all of our direct payment collection from schools and
parents. It’s a software package that’s used
extensively in England, and there are a number of large music
services, such as Hertfordshire, that use this to basically
administer every aspect of their service. There would be, I believe
personally, benefits in looking at using that as some kind of
central data collection. It is a bespoke music service package
that’s been developed, but obviously there are costs attached
to having enough licences for every service to use it in
Wales.
|
[39]
I know, from speaking to colleagues that
are now in that difficult position where they’re trying to
find ways forward, the set-up cost for it is somewhere in the
region of between £15,000 and £20,000, which obviously
for a service that’s already at zero funding, they simply
haven’t got that money to invest in a new way of working.
But, I do believe that there are some advantages in having some
kind of centralised or regional database, so at least we could look
at, if there’s a bank of violins that’s not being used
in Rhondda Cynon Taf that could be used in Bridgend, that we
communicate with each other and say ‘How can we
benefit?’ At the moment, we can do that in an informal
way—and it does happen in an informal way, where you’ll
get a phone call saying, ‘Has anybody got a tuba that’s
available for a course?’ or a really high-quality instrument
that somebody hasn’t got—but on a grand scale, where
you’re talking about tens of thousands of instruments, I
think the first step would be to get everybody onto the same
software package, the next step would be to organise it regionally,
and then to pull it into a national place where we could
report then for Welsh Government to say exactly what the
picture is, both in terms of stock and in terms of numbers.
|
09:30
|
[40]
Suzy Davies: Okay, that’s very helpful. I’ve
just got one small question, because I know you want to ask
something, Neil.
|
[41]
Neil Hamilton: I’m just following you up.
|
[42]
Suzy Davies: I just want to say I approve any sort of
innovative ideas to lever money in—I think that’s good
for us to hear. Could I just ask this one question, though?
Something I hope was done is that all the local authorities did
give the WLGA an idea of their service delivery model. Did you get
that information?
|
[43]
Dr Llewelyn: Yes.
|
[44]
Suzy Davies: That’s fine. Thank you very much.
|
[45]
Dr Llewelyn: Could I come back on something, on what you
wanted to progress? In terms of the—. You asked about the
various fragmentations. In the response we give to the Cabinet
Secretary, we’ll provide information about all of the
recommendations that did apply to us. But one of the examples, I
think, that we’ve discussed at other times with the committee
is the issue of alternative models of delivery. Every service area
that faces challenges, and are cut, faces the challenge of coming
up with alternative models, being more creative and more
imaginative and so on. You see it especially with regard to culture
and leisure services, where many authorities create trusts around
their services and so on. We provide information through various
channels to support authorities in those kinds of transitional
arrangements, but what we don’t do is provide bespoke support
and information for every single service area. So, with regard to
music services, what we would do is provide generic information,
but we simply, as a small organisation, wouldn’t have the
capacity to provide that for every single service area.
|
[46]
Suzy Davies: Okay, thank you. Thank you, Chair.
|
[47]
Bethan Jenkins: Neil Hamilton.
|
[48]
Neil Hamilton: I’m rather perplexed by what
we’ve just heard, in a way, because I’m amazed there
should be any doubt about whether you should have a database of
musical instruments. I mean any business keeps a database of its
assets, otherwise you’ve no idea when things go missing, or
what needs to be replaced, or where there are gaps. It may be, as
this hasn’t been done in the past, that there are resource
implications for setting this up, but surely it can’t be that
great. It’s simply plugging information in—gathering it
from the authorities that should have these assets, plugging it
into a spreadsheet, and there it is. Keeping it up to date can
hardly be a massively resource intensive activity, and the sums of
money that we’re talking about here generally—in
relation to ensemble funding, for example, we’re talking
about £0.5 million in terms of cuts, compared with last
year’s funding, for the whole of Wales. At 22 authorities,
that’s an average of £25,000 per head. I mean that
disappears in the—. Because this has got areas of almost
every branch of service that you provide. So, what’s the
difficulty? Aren’t we getting everything out of
proportion?
|
[49]
Mr Evans: I think, as far as the database is concerned,
it’s not just a count of the instruments. It’s an
understanding of the condition of the instruments, it’s an
understanding of whether they are used or not at that very point of
time and so forth. Individual local authorities—and I can
say, as I’m from Neath Port Talbot—do have a database
of instruments, although we are in a position where we have
recently separated the service from a neighbouring authority, and
that has then caused some difficulties in understanding exactly
where the stock is and so forth. I wouldn’t want you to run
away with the idea that there are no databases out there
whatsoever. There are databases; I think what we’re looking
at is the scaling up of that, and then how that can be used
dynamically to support music tuition across Wales. So, you know,
the counting of instruments I don’t think is a huge issue.
It’s about having some kind of consistency then in the use of
that database and the use of the database as well, which is
slightly different.
|
[50]
Dr Llewelyn: Can I come in on the—? Sorry, go on.
|
[51]
Ms Archer: I was just going to say ‘yes’.
It’s not entirely—it’s not static stock. So, half
of the problem is that, as fast as you allocate an instrument to a
child, perhaps in September, maybe, by after October half-term,
they will have decided to either buy their own instrument or move
school or—there’s a whole plethora of reasons why the
instrument can move. So, it is a challenging area to manage, and it
is being done locally. I’m sorry if I gave the impression
that it wasn’t; it is being done locally, but what
we’re not doing at the moment is, as a matter of course,
sharing that information across regions, or nationally, and I think
that’s what was implied in the recommendation—were
there any economies of scale to be gained by doing that? It is a
little bit of, the amount of resource that would need to go into
doing that, does that actually bring any benefits to the system
that’s already up and running?
|
[52]
Dr Llewelyn: Can I come in on the national arts ensemble?
You’re right in terms of the figures. They are relatively
small, but it reflects the pressure that authorities are under. So,
when they set their budgets, they look at their statutory
responsibility, many authorities are trying to avoid compulsory
redundancies, and they look to shave sums of money wherever
possible to make savings. In this instance, we collectively looked
at the way the national youth arts ensembles were funded in other
parts of the United Kingdom, in Northern Ireland, Scotland, in
England and across the United Kingdom, and nowhere else were they
funded through local government. In every other case they were
funded primarily by central Government, but also then, in terms of
smaller amounts, through sponsorship. Endowments are set up
elsewhere and tuition fees as well. But Wales was the only country
where local government funded the national arts ensembles to such a
great extent.
|
[53]
Bethan Jenkins: Just for the record, though, if we could
have your responses to the 15 recommendations, because I thought
you would have anticipated that we would have asked those questions
today. So, if you can send us your responses to that task and
finish group, we’d be grateful. Lee Waters.
|
[54]
Lee Waters: Thank you. I just want to follow up a couple of
points. As a general point, I fully recognise the pressure that
local authorities are under and the choices that you have to make.
I think we’re all sympathetic to that, but it’s helpful
for us to get a searingly clear picture of where things are at. So,
just a couple of follow up points to each of you, if I may. But
first of all, Chris Llewelyn, you said that the task and finish
group report had no bearing on the WLGA, and that changing
ministerial priorities had meant that the focus had gone elsewhere.
So, can I just be clear in my understanding of the relationship the
WLGA has with that report? Is it that you were not given any
ministerial direction, once it was published, to implement it? Or
are there other reasons why you feel it has no bearing?
|
[55]
Dr Llewelyn: No, sorry, I didn’t say that it had no
bearing. If I did, it wasn’t the intention to communicate
that. We worked closely in advance of the report, and following the
publication of it as well, and what we’ve been doing with the
Welsh Government and other partners is seeing how, effectively, we
can work our way through the recommendations and to try and make
progress wherever we can, but in a proportionate way, given the
capacity that we’ve got as an organisation at our
disposal.
|
[56]
Some of the recommendations, from our perspective, can’t be
implemented fully. I think some of the timescales have slipped as
well, and, as I mentioned, in terms of developing models of good
practice, for example, we’re able to do that in a generic
way, but we don’t have the capacity to do it specifically in
the way that I think the report envisages for music services.
|
[57]
Lee Waters: I realise the WLGA yourself has had a cut in
resources, and your capacity is reduced, but it sounds to me, based
on the evidence Emma Archer has just given us, that a judgment was
made that it wasn’t worth the effort of carrying through some
of the recommendations in the report without extra resources, or
because you thought it had no intrinsic value.
|
[58]
Dr Llewelyn: No, I don’t think that’s the case.
I think, as I say, we embraced it.
|
[59]
Lee Waters: Well, Emma Archer, with respect, just said that
there was no point in sharing the local databases on a national
level because that wasn’t going to bring value. So, that was
what you told us.
|
[60]
Dr Llewelyn: No, what I’m saying is that there
wasn’t a strategic decision taken that there was no value in
implementing the recommendations. What we’ve tried to do is
implement the recommendations as far as we can within the capacity
that we’ve got and in terms of the cost benefit of
implementing the recommendations.
|
[61]
Lee Waters: Right. So, a judgment was made about the cost
benefit and whether or not that was something you should do.
|
[62]
Dr Llewelyn: An assessment is made constantly, because the
position isn’t a static one—services are in a state of
flux because of the way that budgets are set and, particularly,
because of the late notice that authorities are given in terms of
their budgets. So, for example, last year, authorities would have
been planning on a 4 per cent assumption in terms of the cut to
their settlement. As it transpired, I think it was about a 2.5 per
cent cut, but that information wouldn’t have come to
authorities until January. So, the idea of a planned, if you like,
retreat from service provision, it doesn’t quite work like
that. The position is a very unstable one, and every aspect of the
provision is in a state of flux. So, it means constantly having to
make adjustments and responding—
|
[63]
Lee Waters: Sure, I understand that. Before I move on to
something else, I just want to ask you—just in terms of
I’m not clear what you feel the leadership role of the WLGA
is. I hear what you said about your use of the term of having no
bearing, but you gave evidence at the end there, drawing comparison
with other parts of the UK, where local government wasn’t
expected to take a role in these things, it was done centrally.
That is slightly at odds with the general WLGA view about where
power and responsibility should lie, which is, generally speaking,
that local authorities should have maximum discretion and, through
the general power of competence that you’ve been hoping for
under the new local government Bill, for example, there’s a
general feeling that local government should have its own way
within its own backyard, but you’re saying in this area
it’s not an area you think local government should lead.
|
[64]
Dr Llewelyn: No, I was—. Well, I was simply saying
that, in terms of the national youth arts ensembles, having looked
at the way they’re funded and arranged elsewhere, that it
made more sense to set up the National Youth Arts Wales. As they
were configured, some of the ensembles were run through the WJEC,
some through Tŷ Cerdd, funded by the arts council, and the
WJEC funding came from, in a sense, the Welsh Government—
|
[65]
Lee Waters: That’s the national ensembles. In terms of
music services—
|
[66]
Dr Llewelyn: Well, you were asking specifically about the
national—
|
[67]
Lee Waters: Sure, and thank you for clarifying that. In
terms of music services, that is a role that local government
should take the lead on—
|
[68]
Dr Llewelyn: Yes, we—
|
[69]
Lee Waters: —so, what should the WLGA’s
leadership role within that be?
|
[70]
Dr Llewelyn: We would subscribe to the view taken by Karl
Napieralla in terms of the report, that they’re best
delivered as locally as possible through schools and through local
authorities. On the wider point, in terms of the role of local
government, you’re right, what we have constantly argued is
that decisions about how services are run, managed, funded and
delivered should be taken as close to the point of delivery as is
possible, or as is appropriate. In some instances, that means at a
very local level, but, in some instances, it could mean at a
regional level.
|
[71]
Lee Waters: So, just to finish this off, in terms of the
WLGA’s leadership role within that, you accept that you
should have a co-ordinating role, it’s just you haven’t
done it here because of the lack of resources.
|
[72]
Dr Llewelyn: No. In this instance, the WLGA has worked very
closely both with the Welsh Government and with the committee, both
in advance of the recommendations and afterwards, and with other
partners as well, so we liaise closely with—
|
[73]
Lee Waters: But you took a judgment not to proceed with the
recommendations of the task and finish group. Was that because of
resources only?
|
[74]
Dr Llewelyn: No, what we—. In terms of the
recommendations of the task and finish group, what we’ve done
is looked at each one in turn and done as much we can within the
capacity that we’ve got.
|
[75]
Lee Waters: Okay. Well, we’ll look forward to seeing
that. Chair, if I might just move on to Aled Evans, you
said—at the beginning, you gave a rather upbeat assessment, I
thought, about the state of the service; you said that music is
being taught in classes. But the evidence we’ve had, and,
certainly, my own experience in my constituency—it’s a
very varied picture. In some schools, if a head is excited about
it, music is part of the whole school environment and, in others,
it’s virtually invisible. So, I just wanted you just to tell
us a little bit more about your assessment of the current state of
music being taught and also just to touch upon the impact on pupils
from a lower income background, because it’s quite clear from
the evidence we’ve had across the board that fees are likely
to increase as a way of making up the funding mix. You suggested
that the deprivation grant would be a way of helping to meet some
of this. But I’m surprised by that, because the deprivation
grant is already under huge pressure within schools to fund a
variety of things, and that’s heavily at the discretion of
the head, which reinforces the first point that we’re leaving
this system to the discretion of individual heads. Inevitably,
therefore, there are going to be a number of schools that are going
to do very little.
|
09:45
|
[76]
Mr Evans: Okay. If we can take the first part, then, which
is the general state of music, I think what I was trying to do was
to try and draw a difference between what happens within the music
learning within the national curriculum—it’s a part of
the national curriculum; it’s a part of the learning within
the foundation phase; it’s a part of what is delivered within
key stage 2 and key stage 3; and then, obviously, it’s
optional at key stage 4. That is the learning that happens
across—
|
[77]
Lee Waters: Does that happen in every school?
|
[78]
Mr Evans: Across all schools. It’s a part of the
national curriculum. I can’t answer for every school in Wales
but they should be delivering the national curriculum. They should
be delivering what is expected as far as that’s
concerned.
|
[79]
Lee Waters: So, in your local authority, is that happening
in every school?
|
[80]
Mr Evans: Music learning happens in every school, yes, as a
part of the national curriculum. So, teachers will be teaching
about music, about composers, about musicians and the Cwricwlwm
Cymreig, as far as music is concerned. They will be learning about
different composers with Welsh roots and Welsh connections and so
forth, and about instruments that have developed in Wales over the
years. So, that is part—
|
[81]
Lee Waters: Not necessarily playing instruments.
|
[82]
Mr Evans: That is part of the national curriculum. I was
drawing a slight distinction between that learning and then the
tuition learning that happens beyond those lessons very often.
Although I do accept, in many instances, as part of the SLA with
schools, the music tutor will go in and have a full-class
responsibility—in some instances. In other instances it will
be on a one-to-one basis. I know that for voice, for instance, that
will very often be taken through groups of
youngsters—sometimes whole classes and so forth. So, I think
we need to understand the breadth of what is happening there. The
national curriculum stuff is funded through delegated funding; and
then, over and above that, you have the variation of funding.
It’s non-statutory, as we’ve said previously; so,
there’s a variation in how that is funded. That information
is available. I think the latest we have is from 2015-16. As Emma,
Chris and I have indicated, things have changed since that time,
probably negatively in most cases. So, there is a distinction
there. I think there was a second part to your question—
|
[83]
Lee Waters: The pupil deprivation grant.
|
[84]
Mr Evans: Yes, the pupil deprivation grant. That is there to
try and counter and compensate for the material disadvantage that
pupils have. So, that would be an avenue that could be open to
schools, as long as it’s—. Obviously, there would have
to be an agreement that it’s within the terms of reference of
the pupil deprivation grant and so forth. I think, within that, I
would be satisfied that that can be used because it is a means of
trying to compensate for the material disadvantage that youngsters
have.
|
[85]
Lee Waters: Sure, but in terms of addressing the whole point
of this inquiry, which is the teaching of music in schools,
you’d expect that that would be a fairly incidental piece of
the armoury to lifting this agenda, wouldn’t you?
|
[86]
Mr Evans: Yes. I’m not saying for one moment that that
is the silver bullet, as far as this is concerned. I think there is
a need for us to really understand how youngsters from
disadvantaged backgrounds—very often talented youngsters, as
far as music is concerned—do have that step up, that support,
to develop their skills beyond the national curriculum, which is
what the music tuition services do in Wales.
|
[87]
Lee Waters: Yes, but it’s not really a substantive
piece of solving this problem, the use of the PDG, really, is
it?
|
[88]
Mr Evans: No. I don’t think I suggested that, and if I
did I think I may have given you the wrong impression.
|
[89]
Lee Waters: Okay. Thank you.
|
[90]
Bethan Jenkins: Emma, would you like to come in on this?
|
[91]
Ms Archer: Yes, just in regard to music in the curriculum
and the PDG, and perhaps the money that’s been
invested—the £20 million that’s going into the
plan for creative learning support. I think CAGAC as a group and
individual heads of service would totally commend that investment
in education and heightening the profile of the arts in schools.
However, as you rightly say, that in itself is not really having
any impact whatsoever on individual vocal and instrumental tuition.
On the spin around the £20 million when it was originally
launched, I think a lot of schools, teachers and services thought
that, perhaps, there would be an element of that that would come
specifically to music. On the ground, what happens is that there
are short-term projects that are going in specifically to equip
teachers to deliver more creatively numeracy and literacy;
they’re one-term projects between January and April and
they’re not really having any legacy in terms of the
instrumental or vocal take-up at the end. Schools do use the PDG in
some areas where there is high PDG, and that’s another key
point: not all schools’ budgets benefit from huge PDG grants
in the first place. So, there are some schools that do use it,
either to deliver whole-class projects or to supplement small group
tuition if they’ve got particular learners that fall into
that category. But the PDG grant is fairly nailed down in how it
can be used, and so, increasingly, it does come down to individual
headteachers, as you say, and school budgets, to make a
discretionary decision as to whether or not they can and are able
to supplement or subsidise tuition at all. Actually, the plan for
creative learning funding is not going any way towards that.
|
[92]
Just as an aside, going back to the point about the local authority
funding, if we look at Scotland, for example, there is £26
million that goes in from local authorities to their 25
authorities—their music services—and they have
£10 million in addition to that, which is their individual
music fund, which is similar—. Obviously, because of Scotland
being mid-way through Donaldson in the same way as we are,
it’s a useful comparison to make. So, first of all, Scottish
music services are still highly funded by their local authorities,
then there’s £10 million in addition that’s going
in to specifically work with music in a similar way to the First
Access fund working in England. So, it’s just being clear
that we are way behind in terms of the investment of individual
pupils, and the impact of that is, I think, in 10 years’
time, going to be quite significant.
|
[93]
Bethan Jenkins: Hannah.
|
[94]
Hannah Blythyn: Thanks, Chair. I just wanted to return to
concerns on how the cuts in funding are impacting on specific
groups of pupils, and particularly those, perhaps, from lower
income backgrounds. Do you share those concerns, and do you have
any evidence? Also, I think, Aled, you mentioned about how some
schools look at how they support children from disadvantaged
backgrounds. Are there any examples of best practice that could be
implemented on a more prescriptive basis?
|
[95]
Mr Evans: Yes, I share those concerns. I think that there
should be equity. It shouldn’t be something of an elite
activity in any sense. So, I certainly share those concerns. I
think, as Emma has said, there are some individual schools—I
don’t have the exact knowledge or the precise knowledge, but
there are individual schools who subsidise the learning for
youngsters from disadvantaged backgrounds. I’m going to ask
Emma, who probably has a more detailed knowledge, to answer some of
the specifics around what is the picture around funding, or
subsidy, I suppose, for those pupils.
|
[96]
Ms Archer: One of the recommendations that came out of the
task and finish report was that there were funds set up
specifically for free-school-meal pupils. I can speak confidently
about my service. So, three out of the four authorities of Blaenau
Gwent, Torfaen, Newport and Monmouthshire—that’s the
area that we cover—have dedicated a specific
free-school-meals grant that we administer, and Blaenau Gwent still
offer children who are free-school-meals—that they control
through schools. So, there is that element within our authority of
that access for those who are disadvantaged. I’m not sure how
much parity there is across the whole of Wales in terms of that,
and I do think that’s one thing that needs addressing,
actually. Because I think some of that is still contained within
the general local authority funding that goes into music
services, and obviously if they’re already at zero funding,
then, other than using PDG, there is no other avenue for them to
apply. But there’s also something around the ‘just
about managing’ children in the middle, because increasingly
what we’re finding is that it’s not just those who are
eligible for free school meals who are struggling; it’s those
families who are really supportive and have talented children who
really should be given the opportunity. But, as we’re piling
on costs for lessons, instruments and regional orchestras, and as
the national groups are increasing their fees—. That’s
why the endowment announcement is very welcome. If that’s an
avenue for those children to access, then that’ll be
excellent, but there are a lot of families who fall into that
category that simply don’t start to play an instrument
because they know upfront what the cost is and they don’t
fall into the category of being able to access any support.
|
[97]
Bethan Jenkins: Dai Lloyd.
|
[98]
Dai Lloyd: Diolch, Gadeirydd. Mae nifer o’r agweddau
roeddwn i eisiau eu codi eisoes wedi cael eu hateb. Mae’n
bwysig nodi cefndir hyn oll, achos mae’r pwyllgor hwn yn
cario allan yr ymchwiliad yma ar gais y cyhoedd. Er yr holl waith
sydd wedi mynd ymlaen dros y blynyddoedd, a’r cylch gorchwyl
a gorffen a stwff, ym mhen y cyhoedd, hwn ydy’r pwnc pwysicaf
ar hyn o bryd, achos roedd yna bôl piniwn ar-lein. Felly,
dyna pam rydym yn gwneud yr ymchwiliad yma.
|
Dai
Lloyd: Thank you, Chair. A number of aspects I wanted to raise
have already been addressed. It’s important to note the
background of this, because this committee is carrying out this
inquiry at the request of the public. Despite all the work
that’s been conducted previously and the task and finish
group and so forth, in the mind of the public, this is the most
important subject at the moment because there was an opinion poll
online. That’s why we’re doing this inquiry.
|
[99]
Felly, yn dilyn hynny, rydym ni wedi
cael disgrifiad o broblemau cyllido ac ati, ac mae pethau’n
gallu bod yn gymhleth, ond beth fyddech chi’n licio eu gweld
fel argymhellion y pwyllgor yma yn dod allan, i o leiaf trio cael
gafael ar y sefyllfa yma i’r dyfodol? Achos byddwn yn cael
polau piniwn eraill sydd yn dal i ddweud bod hyn yn dal yn her
sylweddol, oni bai—.
|
Therefore,
following on from that, we’ve had a description of the
funding problems and so forth, and things can be complicated, but
what would you like to see as recommendations by this committee to
try and tackle the situation for the future? Because we will have
other opinion polls that will still say that this is a significant
challenge, unless—.
|
[100]
Mr Evans: Rwy’n credu byddwn i’n dymuno gweld
rhywbeth yn benodol yn cael ei ddweud ynglŷn â phlant o
gefndir lle mae amddifadedd yn effeithio ar eu gallu nhw i gael
mynediad. Rwy’n credu, fel yr oedd Emma yn cyfeirio ato, bod
yna, mewn ffordd, rhyw garfan anweledig bron, lle nad ydyn
nhw’n ceisio cael gwersi oherwydd maen nhw’n gwybod yn
iawn na fydd y teulu’n gallu talu amdanyn nhw. Felly,
rwy’n credu bod angen inni ddeall hynny.
|
Mr
Evans: I think that I would like to see something specific
being said about children from a disadvantaged background that
affects their ability to access the service. As Emma said, there
is, in a way, an unseen cohort almost, who are not attempting to
access lessons because they know full well that the family
won’t be able to afford to pay for them. So, I think that we
do need to understand that.
|
[101]
Nid wyf yn gwybod beth yw’r
ateb ac nid wyf yn gwybod sut yn union y gallwn ddatrys y peth, ond
mae’n rhaid inni gydnabod ei fod yn fater y mae angen inni,
fel pobl sydd yn arwain ac yn rheoli gwasanaethau trwy
Gymru—. Mae’n rhaid inni gydnabod ei fod yn fater ac yn
fater difrifol, oherwydd nid wyf yn credu y dylai un plentyn gael
ei amddifadu o’r cyfle i gael gwersi cerddoriaeth—neu
wersi offerynnol, sydd ychydig bach yn wahanol i wersi
cerddoriaeth. Felly, rwy’n credu bod hwnnw’n rhywbeth y
buaswn i’n dymuno i chi edrych arno’n fanwl.
|
I don’t
know what the answer is and I don’t know how exactly we can
solve that issue, but we do need to recognise that that is an issue
that we, as people who are leading in this area and managing
services throughout Wales—. We need to recognise that
it’s an issue and is a serious issue because I don’t
think that any child should be deprived of the opportunity to have
music lessons—or instrumental lessons, which are slightly
different from music lessons. So, I think that that is something
that I would like you to look at very specifically.
|
[102]
Mae yna gyfle hefyd inni efallai
edrych ar sut y gallwn ni—ac rwy’n dweud hyn gyda fy
nhafod yn fy moch—gydweithio mwy gydag awdurdodau
eraill.
|
There is an
opportunity also for us to look at how we can—and I say this
with my tongue in my cheek—collaborate more extensively with
other authorities.
|
[103]
Bethan Jenkins:
Unrhyw un arall? Emma?
Chris?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Anyone else? Emma? Chris?
|
[104] Ms
Archer: Just to say that I think, certainly, the children are
absolutely at the centre of this and the main thing for us all is
to find a way that people are not disadvantaged by the start of the
journey and the finance to do that. But I do think that
there’s something important that we acknowledge: that it is
very much about preserving some kind of structure and quality to
the work that we’re delivering. The real danger at the moment
is that there’s a heads-down approach and that each local
authority music service just pulls inwards and is paddling really
fast to keep going and perhaps loses sight of what the bigger
objectives should be.
|
[105] One of the
things that we are facing challenges with is having enough staff to
do the quality assurance: making sure that teachers are monitored,
making sure that there’s training in place and making sure
that there are the correct operational aspects behind a music
service to be able to move forward. The real danger, if the funding
cuts continue, as they’re set to do for the next two years,
without there being any additional solution, is that it becomes
very disparate and actually you end up with really small groups of
staff who set up as co-operatives, and there’s no
communication, there’s no monitoring of those staff, and
perhaps individual children will still end up having a really great
lesson with a particular teacher who teaches in their school
because that just so happens to work, but we will lose the
consistency that we even have at the moment, and I think that, at
that point, the route through to the national groups will be even
more difficult and it will be even more—
|
10:00
|
[106] Bethan
Jenkins: So, what’s your solution or idea? I think
that’s what Dai was trying to ask.
|
[107] Ms
Archer: I think that more regional working is the way forward.
I do think we need to look at economies of scale and make sure that
we are pooling resources. I think CAGAC, as a group, and the heads
of service would actually welcome more direction from the WLGA in
terms of strategies for how we can more consistently work in our
regions, and I think that, whilst there is a local flavour in each
case, perhaps we need to make sure that we don’t end up being
so passionate about our own little patch that we forget that there
needs to be a solution to this at the end of the day that
doesn’t disadvantage the children that we’re meant to
be delivering to.
|
[108]
Bethan Jenkins:
Chris, yn fras.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Chris, broadly.
|
[109]
Dr Llywelyn:
Byddwn i’n cytuno â nifer
o’r sylwadau. Mae yna gwestiwn, onid oes e, ynglŷn
â fel yr ŷm ni’n gwerthuso hynny a
blaenoriaethu’r ddarpariaeth offerynnol a chanu? Mae’n
amlwg bod pethau—fel yr oeddwn i’n crebwyll yn
gynharach—mae pethau’n gwella ynglŷn
â’r cyrff cenedlaethol o ran rôl cerdd yn y
cwricwlwm. Mae’n amlwg hefyd, o ran gwersi offerynnol a
chanu, efallai bod pethau yn cwympo y tu ôl ryw damaid,
ychydig. Un o’r pethau a fyddai’n helpu awdurdodau yn
sylweddol yw bod â’r gallu yna i gynllunio yn hirach
dros dymor, yn hirach nag yn flynyddol—pe bai’n bosibl
cynllunio dros gyfnod o bum mlynedd. Mae’r gwasanaeth yma yn
enghraifft o le y byddai hynny yn dipyn o fudd pe bai hynny’n
bosibl, achos y gwirionedd yw, beth sy’n digwydd, pan fo yna
doriadau mewn cyllidebau, nid yw effaith y toriadau yna ddim yn
cael ei chynllunio yn strategol, achos bod awdurdodau lleol yn
gorfod ymateb yn y tymor byr ar fyr rybudd.
|
Dr
Llywelyn: I would agree with many of those comments. There is a
question here, isn’t there, about how we evaluate that and
prioritise instrumental and vocal provision? It is clear that
things—as I mentioned earlier—things are improving in
relation to the national bodies, specifically with regard to music
in the curriculum. It’s also clear that, with regard to
instrumental and vocal lessons, maybe things are slipping a little.
One of the things that will help local authorities significantly
would be to have the ability to plan ahead over the longer term,
rather than annually—if we could plan over a period of five
years. This service is an example of where that would be of great
benefit if we were able to do that, because the fact is, what
happens is, when there are cuts to budgets, the effect of those
cuts is not planned at a strategic level, because local authorities
have to respond in the short term and at short notice.
|
[110]
Dai Lloyd: Diolch.
|
Dai
Lloyd: Thank you.
|
[111] Bethan
Jenkins: Lee Waters.
|
[112] Lee
Waters: Two questions. I’m conscious of the time, so
I’d be grateful if you could—
|
[113] Bethan
Jenkins: We started a bit late, so it’s okay.
|
[114] Lee
Waters: Okay. Just grateful if you could be brief. One is to
pick up on Emma Archers’s point about delivery models.
We’ve heard evidence about the hub model in England.
We’ve heard evidence that maybe the regional consortia here
would be a more appropriate model in Wales. Can you give us your
view on the most suitable delivery model to advance this
agenda?
|
[115] Mr Evans:
I think that there is a certain—. We need to look—. I
think that work needs to be undertaken in terms of, I think as Emma
said, economies of scale. It’s certainly an issue. I would
have no issue, personally, with looking at the regional model and
then having, you know, the understanding then that it meets the
needs of the pupils and the schools of Neath Port Talbot, as we
have currently with the school improvement model. That works well
for us, so I would certainly be open to a discussion around
that.
|
[116] Lee
Waters: You’d be more inclined towards that rather than
the hub model, would you?
|
[117] Mr Evans:
Yes.
|
[118] Lee
Waters: Right, okay. Thank you. If anyone disagrees, please say
it, but I think we’d better move on.
|
[119] Dr
Llywelyn: Yes, I think that, as with a number of similar
services, because circumstances vary, I suspect that there
isn’t one particular model that will fit all situations. I
think that different approaches are needed, depending on the
prevailing circumstances, which, I know, is an imperfect answer and
is—
|
[120] Lee
Waters: The trouble is, it’s the extant position, and
that’s allowed this situation to develop, hasn’t
it?
|
[121] Dr
Llywelyn: No, I know, and if we look at other service areas as
well, generally, the imposition of a top-down centralised approach
doesn’t necessarily work in these situations. Whatever the
solution is, I think it needs to be sensitive to the local
circumstances and, you know, the existing arrangements, the
historical legacy, if you like, and the funding circumstances as
well, because all of those things will vary across Wales.
|
[122] Ms
Archer: I suppose that the practical difficulties are getting
staff on to harmonising terms and conditions of working. I think
that a regional model of working would have a lot of benefits in
terms of spreading staff and making sure that they’ve got the
right number of hours for their contract. Over a larger
geographical area, that makes perfect sense, and that, to be
honest, is the reason that we’ve managed to absorb just over
£1 million-worth of cuts since 2012 without having to have
more impact on our pupils, because we’ve been able to utilise
our staff, as demand has dictated, and that is why other services
that are working in smaller regions are finding that the impact of
the cuts is more challenging. But I think that the five-year plan
would be necessary because, obviously, it would take quite a piece
of work to take people from where they are now
|
[123] Lee
Waters: Sure. But, to clarify, you think that adopting one
model could work.
|
[124] Ms
Archer: I think that working on a regional basis, linked in
with the education consortia, would be a very good way of
working.
|
[125] Lee
Waters: Thank you very much. Just one final question—
|
[126] Mr Evans:
Sorry, Lee, I don’t disagree with what Emma has said for one
moment, but I think we need to be careful that we are not scaling
up what, arguably, is a poorly funded model locally into a poorly
funded model regionally. I think that we just need to be mindful of
that.
|
[127] Lee
Waters: That’s a fair point. Okay. Just a final question
from me about funding for the ensembles. National Youth Arts Wales
has been set up with what is, to my mind, a very precarious
financial model. That model is predicated on £270,000 being
made available from local authorities for the coming year. Are you
able to anticipate what might happen in future years?
|
[128] Dr
Llewelyn: In future years, the authorities have said that they
think it’s not affordable—the figures that were quoted
earlier. As I mentioned earlier, the ensembles in other parts of
the UK are funded primarily by central Government, but what is
evident as well is that more effective use is made of other sources
of funding. So, there’s a greater focus on commercial
opportunities of getting sponsorship and so on. The creation of an
endowment is one. There is, I think, evidence that former pupils,
especially the more affluent, find it easier to put money into an
endowment than—
|
[129] Lee
Waters: I understand that, but £270,000 is an awfully big
gap to make up.
|
[130] Dr
Llewelyn: It is, I agree. It is a big gap. The last time we
discussed this issue with the 22 authorities, their view was that
they could provide funding in the short term but that it
wasn’t sustainable into the future.
|
[131] Lee
Waters: And is the short term defined as just one year, or is
there wiggle room?
|
[132] Dr
Llewelyn: At the time of the decision, the funding was already
extended for a further year beyond the initial decision. In this
instance, as I understand it, I think approaches will be made to
individual authorities, possibly, but the collective agreement, as
it were, is not to continue funding.
|
[133] Lee
Waters: Just briefly on the endowment that was announced
yesterday, are you clear on how that will work, and do you think it
will be effective?
|
[134] Dr
Llewelyn: In terms of the detail, I’m not clear at the
moment. I think the principle of an endowment is a good thing, and
it is the right way forward, but I think, as everybody knows, the
difficulty with an endowment is that you need an incredibly large
pot of money to have a significant impact, but you need to start
somewhere. The shame is that this wasn’t something that was
started some time ago. I think, in terms of the national ensembles,
it has significant potential. Already, we’ve spoken today
about learners from deprived areas—an endowment does provide
potential for scholarships. But, as I say, it is a commitment in
the long term. It will take some time until it delivers a deal that
is significant enough to probably meet the demand. But I think
it’s the right thing to do.
|
[135] Lee
Waters: Okay, thank you.
|
[136] Bethan
Jenkins: We’re going to have to finish quickly, but Emma
wants to come in on this now.
|
[137] Ms
Archer: Just one thing on the gap of funding between the top
level of the regional ensembles, the county groups and the national
groups, obviously one of the impacts of the cuts that have happened
over the last four years is that we are now charging at that level.
So, whereas I agree that perhaps funding of the national ensembles
for local authorities may not be a priority in the future, I think
it needs to be acknowledged that once we start charging at that
reginal level, that, in turn, will have a further impact on the
national ensembles. So, if we could redress that, and we could get
to a point where our regional ensembles were all free of charge
again, then that would have an added benefit to the children then
going on to have places in the national ensembles, because they
wouldn’t be having to find money for both, which, moving
forward, they in all possibility will have to do.
|
[138]
Bethan Jenkins:
Yn anffodus, nid oes mwy o amser gyda
ni ar y sesiwn yma. Os oes unrhyw awgrymiadau ychwanegol gyda chi o
ran syniadau i’r dyfodol, sut i fynd i’r afael
â’r sefyllfa yma, plîs e-bostiwch ni neu
cysylltwch â ni.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Unfortunately, we don’t have any time left on
this session. If you have any additional suggestions in terms of
ideas for the future and how to tackle this situation, please
e-mail us or contact us in another way.
|
[139]
Rydym ni’n mynd i gael
brêc nawr tan 10.20 a.m., a dod nôl am y sesiwn nesaf.
Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi.
|
We’re going to have a break now until 10.20 a.m., and
we’ll come back for the next session. Thank you very
much.
|
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:11 a 10:21.
The meeting adjourned between 10:11 and 10:21.
|
Cyllid ar gyfer Addysg
Cerddoriaeth a Mynediad at yr Addysg honno: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth
8
Funding for and Access to Music Education: Evidence Session 8
|
[140]
Bethan Jenkins:
Helo a diolch. Rydym ni’n symud
at eitem 3 ar yr agenda, sef ariannu addysg cerddoriaeth a mynediad
ati. Y tystion sydd gyda ni heddiw yw Peter Bellingham, cyfarwyddwr
pontio ymgynghorol Celfyddydau Cenedlaethol Ieuenctid Cymru, ac
Anwen Fflur Jones, sef cyd-gadeirydd Celfyddydau Cenedlaethol
Ieuenctid Cymru. Croeso ichi yma heddiw ac rydw i’n siŵr
eich bod chi wedi gweld yr hyn rydym ni wedi bod yn ei drafod fel
pwyllgor. Nid wyf i’n siŵr os yw’r
cyfieithu’n gweithio ar hyn o bryd.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Hello and thank you. We will move on now to item 3 on
the agenda, which is funding for and access to music education. The
witnesses with us today are Peter Bellingham, consultant transition
director, National Youth Arts Wales, and Anwen Fflur Jones,
co-chair, National Youth Arts Wales. Welcome here today, and
I’m sure you’ve seen what we’ve been discussing
as a committee. I’m not sure whether the interpretation is
working at present.
|
[141] Mr
Bellingham: Oh, this one here. Sorry.
|
[142]
Bethan Jenkins:
A ydy e’n gweithio
nawr?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Is it working now?
|
[143] Mr
Bellingham: Yes, thank you.
|
[144]
Bethan Jenkins:
Yr oll roeddwn i’n ei ddweud
oedd ‘croeso’. So, croeso ichi yma heddiw.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: All I was saying was ‘welcome’. So,
welcome here today.
|
[145]
Tybed a fedrwch chi, yn y lle cyntaf,
roi cefndir o ran y sefydliad newydd? Y cwestiwn penodol sydd gen i
yw: yn eich tystiolaeth, ym mhwynt 4, rydych chi’n dweud y
gwnaethoch chi ddod i’r penderfyniad—wel, roedd y
penderfyniad wedi cael ei wneud—i sefydlu cwmni newydd yn
hytrach na’r opsiynau eraill ac mae yna resymeg digon clir ym
mhwynt 5 ynglŷn â pham roedd hynny
wedi cael ei ddewis. Ond nid wyf i’n gweld o’r
dystiolaeth os oedd unrhyw fath o ymchwil yn sail i pam wnaethoch
chi, neu bwy bynnag oedd wedi gwneud y penderfyniad i ddechrau
cwmni newydd yn hytrach na’r opsiynau eraill. Dyna oedd y
peth cyntaf a oedd wedi neidio i’m meddwl i gyda
sefydlu’r cwmni newydd. Felly, os medrwch chi roi cefndir sut
y gwnaeth e ddigwydd a pham yn benodol yr oedd yr opsiwn yna wedi
cael ei ddewis. Diolch yn fawr iawn.
|
I wonder if, in
the first place, you could provide us with the background in terms
of the new organisation. The specific question that I have is: in
your evidence, in point 4, you say that you came to the
decision—or the decision was made—to establish a new
company, rather than the other options, and there are clear reasons
in point 5 in terms of why that decision was made. But I
don’t see from the evidence whether any research was the
basis of why whoever made the decision made the decision to start a
new company rather than the other options. That was the first thing
that jumped into my mind with the establishment of the new company.
So, if you could provide a background of how that happened and why
that option was chosen. Thank you very much.
|
[146]
Ms Jones: Diolch. Wel, diolch am y croeso ac am y cynnig i
fod yma heddiw. O ran y cefndir, fel mae’r nodyn yn dweud,
roedd yna bwyllgor ymgynghorol wedi ei roi at ei gilydd er mwyn
edrych ar y gwahanol opsiynau yma. O safbwynt edrych yn ôl ac
wedyn trio edrych ymlaen, y teimlad oedd, o fewn y pwyllgor
ymgynghorol fel yr oedd o ar yr adeg honno—a oedd wedi cael
ei ofyn i gael ei sefydlu gan CBAC—oedd bod yna broblemau o
safbwynt codi arian ar wahân i’r arian cyhoeddus a oedd
ar gael ac, efallai, oherwydd bod CBAC yn draddodiadol, wrth gwrs,
yn cael ei gysylltu â bwrdd arholi—wel, fel bwrdd
arholi—ei fod o efallai’n gamarweiniol o safbwynt y
cyfleoedd a oedd ar gael i godi arian annibynnol. Felly, roedd
hynny’n un ffactor reit bwysig. Roeddem ni hefyd yn gweld
efallai ei fod o’n amser i gael clean break, os
liciwch chi, i ddechrau o’r newydd, oherwydd cyd-destun y
ffaith bod Llywodraeth Cymru wedi gofyn i’r adroddiad gael ei
roi at ei gilydd oedd oherwydd bod y llywodraethau lleol wedi
penderfynu nad oedden nhw am gyllido’r cynllun llawer
ymhellach.
|
Ms
Jones: Well, thank you for the welcome and the invitation to be
here today. In relation to the background, as the note states,
there was a consultation committee put together to look at the
different options. In relation to looking back at the past and
looking forward, the feeling within that consultation committee,
which is what it was at that time—and we had been asked to
establish that committee by the WJEC—was that there were
problems in relation to fundraising, distinct from the public money
that was available, and possibly because WJEC traditionally, of
course, was linked with an examination board—well, seen as an
examination board—perhaps it was misleading in relation to
the opportunities available to fundraise on an independent basis.
So, that was an important factor. We also felt that perhaps it was
time to have a clean break, if you like, to start from the very
beginning, once again, because the context of the fact that the
Welsh Government had asked for the report to be put together was
because local government had decided that they didn’t want to
fund the scheme for very much longer.
|
[147]
Felly, o gofio hynny i gyd, roeddem
ni hefyd yn teimlo ei fod o’n gyfle i greu mudiad newydd a
chynaliadwy i warchod y celfyddydau’n genedlaethol a’i
fod o’n rhywbeth a ddylai sefyll ar ei draed ei hun. Hefyd,
roeddem ni’n gweld, drwy fod yn gorff annibynnol,
ac roedd hwn yn rhan fawr o’r
drafodaeth, fod cyfleoedd i gydweithio mewn partneriaethau efo
mudiadau cenedlaethol eraill, achos mae yna sawl mudiad
cenedlaethol—ac rydym i gyd yn falch iawn ohonyn
nhw—sydd â llawer iawn o gyfleoedd y gallwn ni
fanteisio arnyn nhw. Ond roeddem ni’n gweld y byddai’n
bosib i ni wneud hynny yn llawer iawn mwy effeithiol drwy fod yn
gorff annibynnol yn sefyll ar ei draed ei hun.
|
So, remembering
that, we also felt it was an opportunity to create a new
organisation, a sustainable organisation, to protect the arts on a
national basis and that it was something that should be
independent. Also, we felt that, in being an independent body, and
this was a big part of the discussion, that the opportunities to
collaborate in partnerships with other national organisations would
be there, because there are several national
organisations—and we’re all very proud of
them—which offer great opportunities that we could take
advantage of. We thought that that could be done much more
effectively if we were an independent body.
|
[148]
Bethan Jenkins:
Onid ydych yn gweld bod tensiynau
efallai yn mynd i agor, oherwydd bod, er enghraifft, Tŷ Cerdd,
ar hyn o bryd, yn gyfrifol am rai o’r ensemblau a CBAC yn
gyfrifol am rai eraill, ac wedyn ceisio penderfynu sut y bydd
hynny’n gweithio yn y dyfodol? Onid ydych yn gweld y bydd
hynny efallai yn agor y drws i densiynau yn y dyfodol?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Do you not see that there are tensions that can
arise, because Tŷ Cerdd, at present, is responsible for part
of the ensembles, and the WJEC is responsible for another part, and
then trying to decide how that works in the future. Don’t you
see that that might open the door to tensions in the future?
|
[149]
Ms
Jones: Wel, nac ydw,
a dweud y gwir, achos yr holl bwrpas ydy bod CBAC a Tŷ Cerdd
yn mynd i fod yn delifro’r rhaglen ar gyfer y flwyddyn nesaf
yma, ond wedi hynny, y bwriad ydy llinell yn y swnd a chychwyn eto.
Ac rwy’n meddwl bod llawer iawn mwy o gyfleoedd yn mynd i
godi na thensiynau. Mae Tŷ Cerdd wedi bod yn gwneud y gwaith
gan gydweithio’n reit agos efo CBAC, felly nid wyf yn
rhagweld y bydd hynny’n broblem.
|
Ms
Jones: Well, no, to be honest, because the whole point is that
WJEC and Tŷ Cerdd are going to be delivering a programme for
this coming year, but after that, the intention is that we draw a
line in the sand and start again. And I think there’ll be far
more opportunities arising than tensions. Tŷ Cerdd has been
doing this work and working very closely with the WJEC, so I
don’t foresee that that would be a problem.
|
[150]
Bethan Jenkins:
Ocê. Diolch. Peter?
|
Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Thanks. Peter?
|
[151] Do you have any
initial comments?
|
[152]
Unrhyw sylwadau
cychwynnol?
|
Any initial
comments?
|
[153] Mr
Bellingham: In respect of the tensions, I think that,
certainly, they will probably be there in the people who are
working for those organisations at the moment. But I think it is
important that we get the most efficient ensembles for the benefit
of the young people, the most talented young musicians and singers,
dancers, actors, and that should be our focus. And if that means
that it requires change to achieve that, I think that’s the
right way forward, particularly in the context of a fragmenting
music service.
|
[154] Bethan
Jenkins: Thanks. Jeremy Miles.
|
[155] Jeremy
Miles: If I was a member of the national ensembles, how would
I—? What impact would the new organisational arrangements
have on me?
|
[156] Mr
Bellingham: I think the positive impacts would be that
I’m sure there’s an opportunity to harmonise the
audition process. At the moment, if say you were a flute player, a
flautist, you would audition for the national wind orchestra, and
you would audition for the national youth orchestra, and that
process would be both separate and different. I think that, in
terms of working more extensively in partnership with other
organisations, particularly some of the national companies, that
will bring an additional level of expertise and artistic leadership
opportunity that the young people will benefit from. I think that
one thing that we need to do is to look at the level below the top
of the pyramid. In music, it’s a very clear progression route
through that pyramid, and the fragmentation is going to disrupt
that pyramid at some point, if it’s not already doing so.
|
[157] In order to
protect the ability of the national youth music ensembles to
attract the best players, and to have a flow of best players, I
think we need to work more closely with other providers, music
service providers and others, to have a stronger development
programme at the next step down, so that we can encourage and
inspire and support, technically and musically, those people who
may not yet see themselves as having the potential to get into the
national groups, but perhaps could do with more encouragement. And,
of course, that’s something that costs money to provide, and
we will need to see, within the context of our own draft budgets,
how we can make things like that work.
|
[158]
Jeremy Miles: I’m not clear about what it is about the
new structure that enables you to do things, if you like, that
weren’t available to you under the previous structure.
|
10:30
|
[159] Mr
Bellingham: Well, firstly, it’s a single organisation,
which I think will help. It will have a single focused mission, and
a single artistic vision. Although the delivery at the moment is
from WJEC and Tŷ Cerdd, you can draw a line between the
delivery of those two organisations, and I think it would be true
to say that Tŷ Cerdd organised their ensembles in their way,
and WJEC organised, in this case the orchestra, but they also
provide the dance and the theatre, in their way. It’s, I
think, quite probable that that’s not necessarily the most
efficient way.
|
[160] Jeremy
Miles: It seems to me that it probably isn’t on a common
sense basis. But, actually, they’re going to continue to
deliver on the ground, aren’t they?
|
[161] Mr
Bellingham: Not necessarily, no.
|
[162] Jeremy
Miles: Ocê. Jest cwestiwn i
chi, Anwen. Mae cael dau gadeirydd i’r bwrdd yn strwythur, o
ran rheoleiddio, eithaf lletchwith. Beth oedd y syniad y tu
ôl i hynny?
|
Jeremy
Miles: Okay. Just a question for you then, Anwen. Having two
chairs for the board is quite an awkward management structure. What
was the idea behind that?
|
[163]
Ms Jones: Wel, dim ond trefniant dros dro yw e, o safbwynt
Christine Lewis oedd y cadeirydd, ond yn anffodus mae hi wedi mynd
i Seland Newydd am gyfnod dros y gaeaf, felly fe wnes i gytuno i
gamu i’r bwlch, os liciwch chi, ar yr amod ei bod hi’n
dod yn ôl ac yn cymryd y gadeiryddiaeth drosodd. Felly, rydym
yn cyd-gadeirio yn ei habsenoldeb hi, os liciwch chi. Felly, rydw
i’n ymddwyn fel cadeirydd yn ei habsenoldeb hi, ond fe fydd
hi yn ôl ddiwedd mis Mawrth ac wedyn fe fydd hi yn cymryd y
baton ymlaen. Felly, strwythur dros dro ydy hwn.
|
Ms
Jones: Well, it’s only a temporary arrangement in that
Christine Lewis was the chair, but unfortunately she has gone to
New Zealand for a period over the winter, so I agreed to step into
the breach, if you like, on the condition that she came back and
took the chairmanship back over. So, we are co-chairs in her
absence, if you like. So, I operate as chair in her absence, but
she is back at the end of March, and then will carry forth the
baton. So, it’s a temporary structure.
|
[164]
Jeremy Miles:
Ac rŷch chi’n cymryd
penderfyniadau cadeirydd yn llwyr yn ei habsenoldeb hi; nid oes
rhannu penderfyniadau.
|
Jeremy
Miles: And you’re making the chair’s decisions
entirely in her absence; you’re not sharing decisions.
|
[165]
Ms Jones: Mae hi’n cael ei chadw mewn cysylltiad.
Wrth gwrs, mae’r ffaith ei bod hi’n bell i ffwrdd yn
golygu ein bod ni mewn cysylltiad drwy Skype ac e-bost, ond
mae’r penderfyniadau ar y cyfan wedi dod gennyf i yn ystod y
cyfnod ers mis Tachwedd.
|
Ms
Jones: She is kept in touch with what’s going on. Of
course, the fact that she’s far away means that we keep in
touch on Skype and e-mail, but the decisions mainly have come from
me during the period since November.
|
[166]
Jeremy Miles:
Ocê, diolch.
|
Jeremy
Miles: Okay, thank you.
|
[167]
Bethan Jenkins:
Dai Lloyd.
|
[168]
Dai Lloyd: Ie, diolch, Gadeirydd. Dim ond yn adeiladu ar yr
atebion rydych chi wedi’u cynnig eisoes—ac rwy’n
clywed beth rydych chi’n ei ddweud ynglŷn â bod
yna gydweithio nawr efo CBAC a Tŷ Cerdd am y flwyddyn nesaf,
ac wedyn bydd pethau yn cicio i mewn llawn amser, felly, o flwyddyn
nesaf—beth sy’n digwydd i’r dyfodol wedyn, yn y
berthynas rhyngoch chi, CBAC a Tŷ Cerdd? Beth yw natur y
berthynas yn mynd i fod wedyn, ar ôl y flwyddyn
yna?
|
Dai
Lloyd: Thank you, Chair. Just to build on those responses
you’ve already given—and I hear what you say about this
collaboration now between WJEC and Tŷ Cerdd for the next year,
and then things will kick in on a full-time basis from next
year—what happens then in the future in the relationship
between yourselves and WJEC and Tŷ Cerdd? What will be the
nature of that relationship afterwards, after that year?
|
[169]
Ms Jones: Wel, mae hynny i’w drafod a dweud y gwir.
Fel gallwch chi ei weld, rydym ni mewn cyfnod newydd iawn yn fan
hyn. Rydym ni wedi apwyntio Peter fel ymgynghorydd i’n
harwain ni drwy’r broses o drosglwyddiad. Yn bendant, nid
ydym yn mynd i gau allan y cyfleoedd i gydweithio efo CBAC a
Tŷ Cerdd wrth fynd ymlaen. Ond y gwirionedd amdani ydy y bydd
yna sefyllfa trosglwyddo TUPE beth bynnag, felly bydd y staff yn
trosglwyddo, mwy na thebyg, i ni. Felly, dim ond os byddai ganddyn
nhw gyfleoedd y maen nhw eisiau eu rhannu efo ni neu fod ganddyn
nhw gyfraniad i’w wneud, fe fyddan nhw’n cael
ystyriaeth yr un fath a phob un mudiad cenedlaethol arall. Ond dyna
ydy hi i ni hefyd, y ffaith ein bod ni eisiau edrych ar
bartneriaethau ehangach.
|
Ms
Jones: Well, that’s to be discussed to tell you the
truth. As you can see, we’re in a new period here. We have
appointed Peter as a consultant to lead us through this transfer
process. Certainly, we’re not going to exclude the
opportunities to collaborate with WJEC and Tŷ Cerdd as we
proceed. But the truth is that there will be a TUPE transfer
anyway, so the staff would transfer, more than likely to us. So, it
is only if they have opportunities that they want to share with us,
or that they have a contribution to make, they will be considered
just like every other national body. But, that is what it is for us
as well, the fact that we want to look at broader partnerships.
|
[170]
Dai Lloyd: Oce. Yn y termau yna, mae yna beryg ein bod
ni’n mynd i jest fod yn sôn am strwythurau ac ati, ond
mae’n bwysig cael y manylion hefyd. Yn nhermau, rŵan, yn
naturiol, mae’n amser o newid mawr, ond yn nhermau amserlennu
a her amserlennu, a ydych chi’n rhagweld unrhyw effeithiau o
ddydd i ddydd ar yr ensemblau cenedlaethol? Achos dyna beth fuaswn
i’n pryderu yn ei gylch: beth sy’n digwydd yn y
cefndir, a beth sy’n digwydd yn nhermau’r ensemblau eu
hunain. A ydych chi’n gallu gweld unrhyw heriau yn yr
amserlennu?
|
Dai
Lloyd: Okay. In those terms then, there is a risk that
we’re just going to be looking at structure, for example, but
it is important to have the details also. Of course, naturally,
it’s a period of great change, but regarding timetabling and
the challenge of that, do you foresee day-to-day effects on the
national ensembles? Because that’s what I’m concerned
about: what’s happening in the background, and what’s
going to happen to the ensembles themselves. Do you see any
challenges in the timetabling?
|
[171] Mr
Bellingham: Well, the 2017 programme will be contracted back
from the new organisation to WJEC, who will, in turn, contract
Tŷ Cerdd to deliver their ensembles. From 2018 onwards,
the programme will be delivered from the new organisation with its
new staff structure, and we will then decide which partners to work
with, and deliver a programme according to those partnerships.
|
[172] Dai
Lloyd: Great.
|
[173] Lee
Waters: I must say, you’ve gathered together an
impressive board of volunteers, and I admire your willingness to
step up to this challenge. It is a significant challenge,
isn’t it? Can I just first of all clarify, Peter Bellingham,
your role? It says that you’re a transition director for an
initial period of six months. Is that a full-time commitment for
six months?
|
[174] Mr
Bellingham: It’s an average of 15 days a month in
consultancy. It’s 90 days of work.
|
[175] Lee
Waters: Right. So, you don’t have anyone full-time doing
this role?
|
[176] Ms Jones:
No, not yet. The intention was—looking forward, we will be
seeking someone into a full-time position. But the view of the
board was that, for this initial transition period, bearing in mind
that we are subcontracting the programmes back, for this year, to
the WJEC and Tŷ Cerdd, we felt that this was sufficient for
this period of time.
|
[177] Lee
Waters: Right. And have you started your fundraising strategy
work yet?
|
[178] Mr
Bellingham: We’ve got a fundraiser who’s a
consultant fundraiser. She’s been on board since the
beginning of January. She’s currently working through what
our approach will be and starting to do the research into targets,
particularly focused on trusts and foundations. Our expectations
are that the fundraising for this year will focus on those trusts
and foundations that have as their remit support of organisations
in transition, and organisations going through change. And then
that will switch, later on this year, to programme-based
fundraising.
|
[179] Lee
Waters: Right, because based on your financial assumptions for
this year, you have fundraising income of £82,500 identified,
and from next year you have £115,000—
|
[180] Mr
Bellingham: Yes.
|
[181] Lee
Waters: That seems to me an ambitious assumption, given the
resource you have dedicated to it, and how difficult a field this
is in which to raise funds.
|
[182] Mr
Bellingham: I think that this year’s target is not
particularly ambitious. That’s not to say it won’t be
challenging, but I think it’s achievable, and I think that
it’s a reasonable assumption that we could raise
£115,000 in 2018-19. However, what we will need to do is keep
our eye on how that fundraising is moving against target, and if
necessary adjust the budget accordingly, which clearly would have
an impact on output or overhead expenditure. But we will be
monitoring the income and the expenditure very closely in order to
make sure that as an organisation that we keep within the known
resources.
|
[183] Lee
Waters: But you also have an assumption for the next financial
year of public sector funding of £100,000. Now, we’ve
just heard from the Welsh Local Government Association that the
£270,000 that has been made available this year is not
assumed to be available next year. However, that’s not to say
that you can’t approach individual local authorities. So, is
that £100,000 based on passing the begging bowl round local
authorities?
|
[184] Mr
Bellingham: It is essentially local authority fundraising.
Currently, Gareth Pierce at WJEC is approaching local authorities
with a view to funding the 2017 programme, and the Arts Council of
Wales are having a more strategic conversation with the local
authorities about future funding. So, at the moment, my role in the
organisation is not to get involved in that, but at some point
National Youth Arts Wales will take over that conversation,
hopefully following a positive discussion between the local
authorities and the arts council.
|
[185] Lee
Waters: Right. May I just say I have very real concerns
reading—? Obviously, we don’t have a financial plan,
but from the information you’ve given us, and, I think, some
understanding of the environment that you’re operating
within—. Without a full-time director, with a consultant
fundraiser and an impressive but small board of very busy people,
against a backdrop of a clear message from your traditional funders
that that funding is not going to continue, even with your
statement that activity is going to mean that the new organisation
will have to manage with less funding than previously—even
assuming that, it does seem to me that there are some enormous
challenges ahead of you that I’m not entirely sure
you’re equipped to meet.
|
[186] Mr
Bellingham: I think that we are equipped to meet those
challenges and I also agree that they are large challenges. But
we’ve got a very experienced fundraiser. At some point we
will go from consultant fundraiser to an in-house, full-time
fundraiser, but we have to choose the right moment. Currently, we
feel that the approach is best taken by a consultant approach
focusing on very specific trusts and foundations to get some, if
you like, quick wins, and laying down a strategic approach for a
salaried fundraiser to come in and work to. But those challenges
are certainly there; we don’t disagree with that. And we do
have a financial plan, by the way. The extracts that we’ve
provided are part of a detailed budget that went to the arts
council in order for—
|
[187] Lee
Waters: Is it possible to share that with us?
|
[188] Mr
Bellingham: Yes.
|
[189] Lee
Waters: Thank you.
|
[190] Mr
Bellingham: We will also keep an eye on that, and part of my
role will be to decide whether that financial plan is the right one
going forward. And these things are timetabled in a very detailed
milestone plan for the duration of my consultancy.
|
[191]
Ms Jones: Rhaid inni gofio hefyd ein bod ni’n gorfod
gweithio ar hyn o bryd o fewn swm yr arian sydd gennym ni ar gyfer
y broses drosglwyddo, felly rydym yn weddol gaeth o safbwynt faint
o arian rydym yn gallu ei wario ar wahanol swyddi ac ati. Felly,
mae’n rhaid cofio’r cyd-destun hwnnw. A hefyd jest i
ddweud bod yna hysbyseb yn mynd allan ar gyfer mwy o aelodau
i’r bwrdd yn y dyddiau nesaf yma. Felly, rydym yn ymwybodol
ein bod ni’n griw bach—criw bach sydd yn frwd iawn ac
yn dymuno gweld llwyddiant—ond rydym hefyd yn sylweddoli ein
bod ni angen mwy o sgiliau, yn arbennig sgiliau o safbwynt y byd
creadigol, i ymuno efo ni ar gyfer edrych ar y rhaglen ar gyfer
flwyddyn nesaf.
|
Ms
Jones: We also need to remember that we have to work at the
moment within the sum of money we have for this transition process,
so we’re quite limited in relation to how much we can spend
on various posts, for example. So, we do have to remember that
context. And also just to say that an advert is being placed for
more board members within the next few days. So, we are aware that
we’re a very small group—a very enthusiastic group that
wishes to see success—but we also realise that we do need
more skills, especially skills in relation to the creative world,
to join us in order to look at the programme for next year.
|
[192] Lee
Waters: I’m not questioning at all the skills of the
people you have. Indeed, Peter Bellingham’s track
record—. You’re doing all that you can do. I’m
just worried about the context you’re operating within and
the assumptions that you have, given the context that you’re
facing. Without having seen the financial plan, beyond the
fundraiser working and specific targets, what other plans do you
have to raise funds, because, obviously, you need to keep doing
this year upon year, don’t you, which is a real ask?
|
[193] Mr
Bellingham: The fundraising will come from the fundraiser.
There’s nothing beyond that in the plan.
|
[194] Lee
Waters: But you’re not just going to funding
organisations; you have a more diverse fundraising strategy than
that.
|
[195] Mr
Bellingham: Initially, the focus will be on trusts and
foundations. That will then be followed almost certainly by
individual giving, which is a different strategy, different focus,
and we need to see what resources are available in terms of what
contacts the current organisations already have before we can
properly build that strategy. I think there will be a limited
amount of corporate fundraising, because corporate fundraising is a
very small part of the fundraising sector, particularly in Wales.
So, the focus will mainly be on trusts and foundations, followed by
individuals, and then separate to that, away from the fundraiser,
we’ll be following through the local authority route.
|
[196] Lee
Waters: Okay, thank you.
|
[197] Bethan
Jenkins: Jeremy again.
|
[198] Jeremy
Miles: Can I just go back to the line of questioning that Dai
Lloyd was pursuing with you about the future relationships and the
delivery on the ground, which we touched on in our discussion as
well? And you mentioned that there will be other options,
effectively, rather than using Tŷ Cerdd and using the WJEC,
and there were TUPE implications and so on. What was the pool of
available alternative providers?
|
[199] Mr
Bellingham: The staff team for delivery will sit within the new
organisation, and the transfer date for that is the end of
September. So, the logistics and delivery of resources of staff
will be from the staff team, but working to a greater extent, I
think, in partnership with some of the other, particularly the
national, companies within Wales, but quite possibly other
organisations as well.
|
10:45
|
[200] Jeremy
Miles: Okay. And we heard from the WJEC when they gave
evidence—I think I’m right in saying from
recollection—that at least for this year and perhaps
previously, they have effectively been providing services in kind,
if you like, which have not been paid for but they are
quantifiable. I can’t quite remember what value they placed
on them.
|
[201] Lee
Waters: It was £70,000.
|
[202] Jeremy
Miles: Thank you. What’s your expectation of that sort of
value going forward?
|
[203] Mr
Bellingham: I think, if I understand it correctly, that, in
previous years, has been an internal recharge and that, this year,
WJEC have offered, very generously, to absorb those costs. I think
we can make sure that our overhead costs are lower than that, as a
very small organisation working with a limited need for office
space and facilities.
|
[204] Jeremy
Miles: So, that isn’t really a vulnerability, if you
like, in the future. You can manage that—
|
[205] Mr
Bellingham: I don’t believe so.
|
[206] Ms Jones:
We also hope and expect that the fact that it’s going to be a
streamlined organisation with its own fundraising capability will
mean that it will be an attractive proposition for those
fundraisers, so that the £70,000 in kind that you
mentioned—you know, that we will hopefully be in a position
to beat that in terms of our own individual fundraising.
|
[207] Neil
Hamilton: Can I just
ask—[Inaudible.]—together? What’s your
target?
|
[208] Mr
Bellingham: In 2017-18 it’s £82,500.
|
[209] Neil
Hamilton: That’s all.
|
[210] Mr
Bellingham: In 2018-19 it’s £115,000. We believe
that it’s possible—and this was a guide amount in the
fundraising report that was part of the task and finish group
report—that it should be possible to target £300,000 as
an annual amount. I think that it will take at least three years,
possibly four years, to get to that amount. So, our budget, for
example, for—
|
[211] Neil
Hamilton: That’s 10p a head for everybody in Wales.
|
[212] Bethan
Jenkins: It’ll take you three years to get to the point
where you can raise £300,000 a year or it’ll take you
up to that point to be able to raise £300,000?
|
[213] Mr
Bellingham: No, I think it will take us at least three years
before we can raise £300,000 every year.
|
[214] Bethan
Jenkins: Every year. Neil, did you want to come back on
this?
|
[215] Neil
Hamilton: I’ve just, throughout this inquiry, been struck
by the modesty of the figures that we’re talking about and
the amount of effort that is going into arguing the case on the
part of those who don’t want to provide this trivial amount
of money. So, the mountains are in labour, aren’t they, to
quote the Latin poet? I just find it incredible that, for a
national, essential requirement of this kind that we’re
having to go through this exercise at all.
|
[216] Mr
Bellingham: I’ve provided, for context, the amounts that
are spent in England and Scotland for similar—not the same;
there are actually six ensembles here in Wales—but the
similar ones that I could see being publicly funded by Creative
Scotland and the Arts Council England, and they are clearly,
obviously, significantly higher. But we have to work with the money
that’s available to us and make our case as persuasively as
possible. I think, in a sense, going back to the fundraising, there
is a very powerful story to be told about the development of talent
and the most talented musicians and singers and actors and
dancers.
|
[217] Bethan
Jenkins: Not that I want to give over all my salary as well,
but are you utilising the alumni at all? I’ve never been
asked, as an alumni, for anything.
|
[218] Lee
Waters: [Inaudible.] [Laughter.]
|
[219] Ms Jones:
That’s something that certainly we should be doing more of
and I don’t think traditionally has been happening. But if
you look on their website, you have an illustrious list of people
who have benefitted from the experience they’ve had, and
there’s a huge, huge fountain there that we should be looking
at, for sure.
|
[220] Bethan
Jenkins: I agree. Suzy.
|
[221] Suzy Davies: You
mentioned that there is a powerful story to be told for the talent
that’s available here, but that’s got to be true of
other parts of the UK as well. The competition, through
philanthropic sources, particularly in England as a result of their
White Paper on the arts about a year ago, means that there’s
going to be tremendous pressure on these sources. What are you
going to be able to say that actually gets NYAW’s argument
over the line? What’s the unique selling point that
you are going to be able to press on? In no way do I diminish the
talent in Wales when I ask that question.
|
[222] Mr
Bellingham: I think that, to be perfectly honest, it’s
not necessarily just about a unique selling point. It’s
making a wholesome and persuasive case, and that’s what
skilled fundraisers are good at doing. They understand the other
side of the table. So, if you go into a particular trust, they do a
considerable amount of research about that trust, where their focus
is, and what they want to see delivered back for their funding. And
you construct a case on an individual basis. I think that we do
have the persuasiveness of developing talented young people, but we
have to make that case on a case-by-case basis for each
application.
|
[223]
Suzy Davies: Okay, thanks. I’m sure you will get some
questions on this later, but I just want to carve it out slightly.
Part of the purpose of restructuring is to actually have a cheaper
structure, isn’t it, so that when you have a pot of money,
less of it is eaten up by the organisation itself. As I say, you
will probably get some questions about that, but have you got any
sense at this stage about—? On your projected target of the
amount of money you want to raise, how much of that is likely to be
taken up with regular costs—not the set-up costs, but the
year-on-year costs? Could you just give me a rough idea?
|
[224] Mr
Bellingham: I think it’s—
|
[225] Suzy
Davies: You are going to be asked this later, but—
|
[226] Mr
Bellingham: It’s not necessarily the right focus for that
question, if I may. But in 2018-19, the programme costs are listed
in the budget as £415,000 and the overhead costs—admin
services and overheads—is £48,000. The salary costs are
in the budget at £240,000. In terms of the fundraising and
its relationship specifically to overheads, I don’t think
it’s a question of fundraising paying for overheads.
|
[227]
Suzy Davies: No, I’m thinking of your pot.
|
[228] Mr
Bellingham: It’s one of the income streams.
|
[229]
Suzy Davies: I’m thinking of the whole pot, so that’s
okay. The reason why I asked those questions is: what is going to
happen if this model fails?
|
[230] Ms Jones: Well, it was made very
clear to us that, if something didn’t happen along these
lines—obviously, we had those four options that you have seen
in the paper—it was going to fail anyway. So, we have to do
something. We have to try. If it all fails, then it will be a very
sad day for this nation. I haven’t got a looking glass,
unfortunately, but we are passionate about trying to make this
work.
|
[231]
Suzy Davies: I don’t dispute that.
|
[232]
Ms Jones: That’s the best I can give at this moment in
time.
|
[233]
Suzy Davies: One of the sources of income, of course, would be
fees. There has been work about standardising fees and so forth. Do
you recognise that there might be a tipping point for the young
people of Wales generally, but very specifically for those from
lower income backgrounds? It’s obviously an ambition to make
sure those young people are included in this.
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[234] Mr
Bellingham: Yes, definitely. I think that one of the things
that we have to try and achieve—and we don’t yet have a
plan for how this would be done, but it is a conversation for a
little bit further down the line—is how can we create a
larger bursary fund within the organisation in order to make sure
that everyone does have access to these provisions of the
ensembles, and—
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[235] Suzy
Davies: Are you worried that the endowment announcement
yesterday might actually prove to be competition for that?
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[236] Mr
Bellingham: It may prove to be competition. It may also be an
opportunity, although it is going to be some time before that
endowment releases any real sense of grant income. But that, again,
has to be part of our fundraising case, to find the individuals,
trusts and foundations that, collectively, can combine to create
what would hopefully be a growing bursary fund. It is important
that we don’t price out people who can’t afford to go
to these residencies but who should be there by right of their
talent. It’s equally important that we get the balance right,
so that those who can afford to pay are paying an appropriate
amount for the residential services.
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[237] Ms Jones:
And also, a greater risk, if anything, is the fact that music
services are being fragmented across the country anyway. So, if you
don’t have the right structures in place for these people to
feed into what NYAW is able to offer, then that poses a massive
problem.
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[238] Suzy
Davies: I think we’ve heard that loud and clear. Just one
final question, Chair. Bearing in mind what we’ve just said
about young people who might miss out—for financial or for
other reasons, actually; it might just be rural or geographical
isolation, if you like—will there be any capacity within the
new organisation to actually proactively go out and talent spot, if
I can put it like that? Perhaps I’m oversimplifying that, but
thinking, ‘Actually, we haven’t heard much from north
Carmarthenshire for a long time, I wonder if we’re missing
somebody.’
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[239] Mr
Bellingham: I think that that is aligned to our view that we
should be developing people who are not yet at the level. One of
the problems, quite often, is people’s own aspiration and
confidence that they might not be able to achieve a certain goal.
We know what the goal is, and it’s very measurable in music,
for the national orchestra and for the other ensembles. So, I think
we can both talent spot, I guess, on not so much an individual
basis, but by being aware of what’s happening in the regional
networks. I’m sure that is already the case with the current
setup, but I think there is more that we could do to support and
develop that next level, to ensure that there is a flow of the
right quality and skilled musicians in the future.
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[240] Suzy
Davies: I’m just wondering how that might look, because
if a young person’s got the misfortune to go to a school
where the head doesn’t think it’s particularly
important—. Whether there’s a way in through the
regional consortia to identify—well, it would be individuals,
I think, who might be missing out in this way.
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[241] Mr
Bellingham: I think you have to identify the individuals at a
slightly lower level in the pyramid—
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[242] Suzy
Davies: Oh, yes, definitely.
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[243] Mr
Bellingham: What people will most benefit from, in terms of the
step before being able to join the national youth orchestra, the
brass band, the choir or the wind orchestra is the opportunity to
play at a high level in an ensemble context and an opportunity to
learn from the best tutors and to get that practical, technical and
musical advice to equip them for their audition next year or the
year after.
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[244] Suzy
Davies: All right. I think it sounds like quite a step, that
bit, but thank you very much. Thank you, Chair.
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[245] Bethan
Jenkins: I just wanted to go back to the endowment announcement
yesterday and just to be a bit of a devil’s advocate, really.
The Minister said that she was setting up a steering group through
the arts council for administering this endowment. Do you think
that’s the right way to go, or have you had conversations
with her with regard to you being the body to facilitate that?
Because my gut reaction was that the arts council actually
don’t have the expertise in-house; they commission that out
to Tŷ Cerdd and WJEC at the moment. So, setting up a separate
steering group within the arts council may be missing the point.
So, that’s my first question. And then whether you think
that, potentially, it’s putting the cart before the horse:
would it not have been better to put the money in to you first and
then the endowment, or both at the same time? But, of course,
finances are tight. I don’t whether you have views on that or
whether you’re willing to put them on record, but just to
hear what you have in terms of those general issues with the
endowment fund.
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[246] Mr
Bellingham: Well, I don’t have views that represent the
organisation, but I think it would be a very narrow focus, nice as
it would be for National Youth Arts Wales if that fund was only
routed through National Youth Arts Wales. If the Government’s
intention is to have a wider distribution of the financial benefits
of that endowment, then it probably is best that it’s not
placed with a single delivery organisation.
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[247] Ms Jones:
I agree, and, certainly, it’s not something that we’ve
discussed, because the announcement came only—it was last
week, wasn’t it? So—
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[248] Bethan
Jenkins: So you weren’t contacted and you’ve had no
conversation with the Government about it on any level.
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[249] Ms Jones:
No.
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[250] Bethan
Jenkins: Okay. Do you want to come in? Jeremy.
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11:00
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[251] Jeremy
Miles: Can I just come back to the figures that you quoted in
terms of the operating costs generally? I think you said something
of the order of £450,000 for the programme budget and then
£250,000 for staffing, and then about £48,000 for
operating costs, basically. The figures for
staffing—they’re presumably based on the figures for
staff currently employed at Tŷ Cerdd and WJEC. How does that
break down? I don’t want particular salary numbers,
obviously, but just a sense of what the calculation is broadly
based on.
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[252] Mr
Bellingham: First, if I may say, these figures were done before
my own appointment in a consultancy role. My understanding is that
they make an assumption about what the new staff structure might
be, and make an assumption about the salaries for those posts. One
of my tasks would be to revisit that structure and those salaries
and it may be that I come to a different figure at the end of that
work. Obviously, in that context we also have our legal obligations
for TUPE arrangements.
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[253] Jeremy
Miles: Sure. The reason I ask is that there’s a sort of
category challenge here, isn’t there? If you were to look at
the overall budget and then look at which part of that is
represented by operating costs generally, it depends on what those
staff do, effectively, obviously, doesn’t it? So, if
you’ve got an organisation where, against a budget of
£600,000 or £700,000, you’re looking at operating
costs of £50,000, that’s extraordinarily lean,
isn’t it, on one level. But if you’re looking at
operating costs of £300,000 against a budget of
£700,000, that’s obviously the opposite end of the
spectrum. So, I just want to get a sense of the extent to which
that staffing budget is deployed on, if you like, the front line of
what the organisation will be doing, which I would imagine is more
to do with the programme budget.
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[254] Mr
Bellingham: I think that every member of the staff team in a
new structure would be involved in the delivery of the programme,
either through raising money for it or through hands-on delivery.
But it’s not going to be a structure that is not delivery
focused.
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[255] Jeremy
Miles: Thank you.
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[256] Bethan
Jenkins: Earlier you mentioned the local authority connection
in relation to the ensembles and that the WJEC still have that
relationship, but we didn’t ask about what your view is of
the actual situation on the ground to be able to feed up the
pyramid at the moment. So, we’ve heard, for example, from the
orchestra that they’re getting fewer auditions, fewer people
coming through. I don’t think it’s the same challenge
for the wind band and the brass sections. So, I’m just trying
to understand your views on that, whether you think there is an
issue there and whether that will affect you and getting those
young people through, or whether at the moment you’re just
focusing on what you need to do because of course you’re a
new organisation and that’s your priority.
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[257] Mr
Bellingham: Well, we are focusing on what we need to do to make
the organisational change happen, but any fragmentation of the
music services has to be a really serious threat. The question is:
when will that threat present itself in terms of the national youth
ensembles? Is that in three or four years, is it in seven or eight
years? At some point, if the bottom of the pyramid is class tuition
to everyone—which is fantastic, that we should have music
education for every single person—as you get higher up, the
talent spotting has to come at that level. Someone spots that two
or three people in that classroom are more musical or more
technically advanced than the rest, and they have potential, and
that’s an opportunity for them to be introduced to music
tuition through the peripatetic system and then they go on to play
in their school orchestra, their regional orchestra, their county
orchestra, and eventually you hope that they’ll come into the
national orchestra or the other national ensembles. At any point in
the pyramid that starts to get fractured, there’s a potential
for those people to fall away, and it could be the case that, in a
certain number of years, for example, there aren’t enough
people of the right standard to form a national youth orchestra.
That would be absolutely tragic and devastating for this
nation.
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[258] Bethan
Jenkins: And who do you think should be flagging—?
Obviously, some people are saying to us already that that’s
the case. Like I said earlier, people are not trying for those
positions. Who would you think should be leading, then, to say,
‘Look, this is where the pinch points are, and this is where
we should be putting on our investment’, to make sure that
the reality of not having a full orchestra is for the future at
all?
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[259] Mr
Bellingham: I don’t know enough about exactly how it
works to really be able to comment, other than, probably, we should
look at every layer of the pyramid to see whether it’s
potentially broken and have some solutions as to how that could be
fixed.
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[260] Ms Jones:
And, certainly, at the moment, obviously, we are not perceiving
ourselves as advocates for the whole pyramid, because we are a new,
infant organisation. But, certainly, if, in time, that becomes
something we feel we should be getting involved in, then,
certainly, I can’t see that we shouldn’t include that
within our brief.
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[261]
Bethan Jenkins:
Ocê. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi
am ddod i mewn heddiw. Rwy’n siŵr y bydd gennych
ddiddordeb mewn gweld yr hyn yr ŷm ni’n ei wneud
o’r pwyllgor, ac os oes unrhyw wybodaeth ychwanegol yr ydych
chi eisiau ei danfon atom ni, plîs, gwnewch hynny, a diolch
yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod i mewn heddiw.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Okay. Thank you very much for coming in today.
I’m sure that you’ll be interested in what we do as a
committee, and if you have any additional information that you want
to send to us, please do that, and thank you very much for coming
in today.
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[262] Ms Jones: Diolch.
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Ms
Jones: Thank you.
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11:06
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Papurau i’w Nodi
Papers to Note
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[263]
Bethan Jenkins:
Rydym ni’n symud ymlaen yn awr
at eitem 4, sef papurau i’w nodi. Mae papur 1, llythyr gan
Gomisiynydd y Gymraeg at Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros yr Economi
a’r Seilwaith, cynlluniau strategol y Gymraeg mewn
addysg—a ydy pawb yn hapus i dderbyn y papurau i’w
nodi?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: We move on to item 4, now, which is papers to note.
Paper 1 is a letter from the Welsh Language Commissioner to the
Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure, Welsh in
education strategic plans—is everyone happy to note those
papers?
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[264]
Dai Lloyd: Bodlon.
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Dai
Lloyd: Content.
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[265]
Bethan Jenkins:
Bodlon.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Everyone is content.
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11:06
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Cynnig o dan
Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o Weddill y
Cyfarfod Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve
to Exclude the Public for the Remainder of the Meeting
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Cynnig:
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Motion:
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bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y
cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).
|
that the committee resolves
to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in
accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).
|
Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
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[266]
Bethan Jenkins:
Eitem 5, cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog
17.42 i wahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod. A ydy pawb yn hapus
i wneud hynny? Diolch yn fawr.
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Item 5 is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to
exclude the public from the rest of the meeting. Is everyone
content? Thank you very much.
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Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion agreed.
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Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am
11:07. The public part of the meeting ended at
11:07.
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